Short stacked MTT with AK: Open shove of build pot?

Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
edited October 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Late stages of a MTT charity NL tournement. 72 entries; ~20 left. 8 places paid. blinds 600/1200, no antes in this structure. Everyone is short stacked, but H and V2 have chip lead at the table with 11 BB and 12 BB respectively. H and V2 are strongest, most aggressive players at the table, and are close to tourney chip leaders at this point.

H has AdKc UTG, and raises to 2.5 BB hoping to get more chips in and shove any 3bet or any flop.
V1 in UTG+1 shoves with ~5BB.

Folds to V2 in CO, who shoves 12 BB. (H and V2 had confrontation a couple hands prior, and H thinks V2 may be trying to push him off light to isolate V1).

H calls with AdKc; V1 shows AsTh; V2 shows AhKh. Board runs out and V1 hits his ten, tripling up through H and V2.

I realize that it is likely all chips were going in regardless, given the actual cards held. Would it have been better for H to a) open shove (which may have chased V1 out and ended up chopping blinds with V2); or b) folding to V2's shove and preserving stack.

When short stacked approaching the final table, is it better to open shove and pick up blinds, or take a little risk to try to get a few more chips in before shoving? Is folding AK in this situation even an option?


  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Top 8 pays, how's the payout structured? How soft is the charity field? I've played charity events of mainly poker players, and events where 70% of the field didnt have any more understanding of poker than watching a few episodes of the WSOP. If the field is the latter, take the play that is a smaller gain for less risk, IMO, and just rip it.

    At a more competent field, I see no problems running a stop and go with 9-13 bigs (bet/rip flop). Folding AK is simply not an option as chip leader with 12ish big blinds this far out of the bubble (12 more needing to bust). Really surprised it already isn't a rip-fest, but yeah. 20 people sHaring 150 BBS or so, just not really a time to be folding AK.

    I think you are right though. It's very unlikely it changed the outcome of this hand, maybe A10 folds, but at 5 bigs they really shouldn't.
  • Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
    The field here was pretty soft, but only about 10-15% were totally clueless. And with a structure this fast, clueless is less of a disadvantage than normal. (Starting stacks were 150 BB, 15 minute levels).

    I would say that about 30-50% of the players were decent to solid rec players who play these types of tourneys 1-2 times every week. I typically cash 20-25% of the tourneys of this type I play, usually with a top three finish.

    The typical players here are really reluctant to shove even 5 BB or fewer without a pair or decent ace, and I really needed to chip up to have a shot at the money, so I went for trying to get more players in the hand rather than shutting it down right away.
  • Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
    Also, Payout structure was something like this:

    1st: $1150
    2nd: $650
    3rd: $450
    4th: $250
    5th: $175
    6th: $150
    7th: $120
    8th: $90
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Good payout structure, so chipping up would be better than staying alive until the bubble bursts. Most charity payouts I have played tend to be more flat, so cashing versus winning isn't really a huge jump. With a good mix of experienced/thinking players, I like your thought process in inviting another few blinds into the pot.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    If you're second in chips at 11BB I'm assuming most of the table has about half that? In which case I don't see that raising 2.5x instead of shoving helps you at all. A raise may actually look stronger than a shove in this spot, but even that probably doesn't matter with such shallow stacks.

    The only time folding AK is an option here is for extreme ICM reasons like a satellite bubble.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    I like a simple open-shove here. Raising to 2.5x creates problems like the one you list here, whereas shoving still creates lots of fold equity, and even if it does look weaker than a raise, you have a hand that is definitely strong enough to stand the heat if called.
  • PescatarianPescatarian Red Chipper Posts: 83
    I'm very familiar with this spot as I play a lot of pub games with no antes.

    With 12bb and no antes your M is 8. Generally I go off the rule that an M of 7 or less is a shove/fold spot and 8-10 is a really awkward amount. So with this stack size I look at all other factors and make my decision.

    With some desperate stacks and an agro image I lean towards just jamming it. I would never just raise here but would consider a limp if your image allows and you think it has a good chance of inducing a shove.

    As played, it was all going in anyway.

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