Everyone calls preflop 3-bet from BB with AA

ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
edited October 2015 in Live Poker Hands
I am playing 1/2 at MD Live casino. I having been playing more then 6 hours at this table and most players have been at table at least a few hours. I have a stack of around $450.

I don't believe any of the villains still at the table were playing when I lost my 1st two $150 buy ins. These 8 guys have just seen me mostly chipping up slowly from somewhere after the 3rd buy in. It's been a long tough session. Few really bad players have sat at this table and when they have I have not been able to get in a hand with them. Or worse they get there with bad calls a couple of times.

So the hand for review. I have the :As:Ac in the big blind. UTG open raises 12. UTG has a stack just about $425 or so. He is not terrible not real good either. We are friendly. I have sat tables with him before and he is improving but still not too dangerous. An ok Rec player not really a Reg. He limps more than open raises so he has a hand here usually.

He gets a fold from the next players but then, a call from older (mid 60's or older) sharp dressed guy wearing a fedora. This guy thinks he is better then he is. He likes to talk about poker and dice a lot. He's also friendly and good to have at the table. He's just pretty easy to read with ABC style of play. He's not too gamblely and bets too much to protect made hands not for getting calls from target hands. He's limping bad hands if it limps to him and usually only calling raises not 3-betting. He's been at table for about two hours I have not seen him 3-betting. I have not seen him do anything other then ABC and over limp too much. He's got a bit more then the $300 he bought in with but not $400.

Next player is a young aggressive gambler type. He's playing way too many hands and attacking signs of weakness after the flop. Hes sitting on $200 or so but I think hes down. Hes short stacking and bought in more then once. This guy is playing 50% or more of his hands. Seems like he sees every flop. He calls the $12.

Next player is totally dead money. He has a fresh $200 dollar stack. He does not understand the game any better then the hand rankings. He's relatively young and talking football with the table end near him. He likes to call. He likes to bet $5 with his middle pair holdings. He'll bet $5 and call raise and do it for two streets. He is not position aware. He is not considering pot size when he bets and rarely raises. He is dead money and everybody has picked up on it. Dead Money calls the $12.

Good regular calls next. I have played with guys many times. He comes in on Sunday, in the early am, trying to break though of us that have been there since Saturday night. I think he does Saturday mornings as well. He plays a lot of suited connectors and wins plenty of chips from Nits with big pairs and tired players off their game from lack of sleep. He is dangerous but he is always calling with speculative hand here because, he would squeeze with anything that could win unimproved. He has around $600.

One more call from little blind. He has a about $200. He is terrible week tight guy. I think even the week tight guy raises here with any Broadway pair and AQ+.

I make it $53. I did not want folds from everyone. I wanted a caller. I'd feel okay with two.

They all call. Not one 4-bet. I thought maybe a sandbagging JJ+ would 4 bet. I thought maybe crap would fold to $53. Is $53 terrible here?

We are going to the flop 5-way with almost $300 in the pot. I am disgusted. I already have my aces cracked. I should have made it $100 and taken $75 pre.

The flop is :Jh:7h:3s . I am first to act. I have almost $400 now in my stack and two players still in the hand pretty much cover. I don't think I can get calls from beat hands with a shove or with anything more then 1/2 pot. I don't feel like I am done yet. Its not the worst flop for me. I dreaded anything with three high straight cards or single suited. I can get action from worse here. And nobody but :J? :J? and J7s and :3? :3? have gotten ahead on flop. Its probably the best flop ever for me with all the action I got preflop. I make $125. In hand I figured that was about 1/2 pot.

The preflop initial raiser goes all in. He's making it around 300. Nice dressed guy. Thinks a long time. He's still got something he wants to play. He's muttering and calculating. He takes like 2 or 3 minutes and finally folds. The others fold quicker back around to me.

So what do I do. This is always JJ from UTG preflop raiser right? He been strong twice here already. He raised then called my 3 bet. I don't think he expected the 3-bet to be called 3 more times. I don't think he's QQ+ plus. I ask him if its a set of jacks. He tells me yes. I believe him but, there is all that money in the pot. I have they over pair. He might play queens this way. Not kings though.

I call anyway. I just can't fold here. Is this wrong?

Would you make the preflop raise more?

Would you play the flop different? Check? Bet larger? Shove it?

Comments

  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    1) If I ever play cards with you, I'll be sure to wear my best outfit.

    2) I'm curious as to why you buy in for $150.

    3) I'm a bit confused on how many people are in the hand. I counted (reread to do so) 6 players before you, but at one point you wrote that you were seeing the flop 5-way. In either case, I do think your raise to $53 was way too low. Because you wrote out the descriptions I'm assuming the flop was 7-way, including you. Your call of $12 puts $84 in the pot and, with roughly a $40 raise, UTG is already getting 3-1 to make the call and then it gets sweeter for each player afterwards. I really think a healthy raise of $85-$100 is a solid decision here. There's no shame in picking up 37 BBs pre-flop.

    4) If 6 guys called you, that's about $370 in the pot pre-flop which leaves you an SPR of 1. I just jam here. If someone has a set so be it. If you lead too low, as I think you did, and get calls I don't like any :J? :T? :9? :8? :7? or :Xh .
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    Big raise pf. BIG. $150 +/-.
    4) If 6 guys called you, that's about $370 in the pot pre-flop which leaves you an SPR of 1.

    As played a flop shove is all you can do.
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    Skors3 wrote:
    ... I'm a bit confused on how many people are in the hand.

    Sorry Skors, my writing was at fault here. I did not literally mean everyone calls. It just feels that way when 4 of 6 called. The UTG original raiser called then 3 of his 5 came along for the additional amount. So it was 5 way to the flop.

    There where 6 in the hand ahead of me for $12 plus my bb so $74 in the pot or $84 depending how you count me at time it gets to me pre.

    I figured $53 was actually pretty big raise by 1/2 standards. I thought it was probably going to end it right there even with all the $12 calls. It almost always does at 1/2. If I go much larger most of these guys just fold everything. They don't consider the odds and/or just figure me for a donkey that has AA and not worth chasing. However, I know two players hands and they where calling more preflop if I had bet it. The second thing is $53 is a lot out of the stack in play here. Its big relative to the blind. Even at this 5 am or so game I thought I'd most likely get folds.

    I was greedy. I wanted some action. I do this too much. My actual over the table thought about the size was that JJ+, AK and AQs will call this and only KK and AA will raise if they can even still be out there. I really thought only UTG and maybe Fedora could even have JJ+ after the action gets all the way around to me in the big.

    So five see the flop for $53 and two more called for $12 but folded for the additional $21. Making the pot 289 (53*5=265 + 12*2=24).
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    Big raise pf. BIG. $150 +/-.

    Do think anyone ever calls for this amount? If I had just called the pot would have been $84 (12*7) before rake.

    My write up was a bit confusing on the number who actually called.

    More clearly, I hope, UTG raised to $12 and had calls from 5 players. I am in the big blind and re raise to $53. I get 4 calls.

    I wish could write as well as Persaudeo ... :)
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    Skors3 wrote:
    I'm curious as to why you buy in for $150.

    Where I play 1/2 NL, the min buy is $100 and max buy is $300. I used to always buy in for the max. This year I started experimenting with $100 buy ins and I am currently settled at $150. I like two things about starting small.

    1st I try to limit my losses to $300. Its not a law but rule. We'll the wife thinks its a law. And $150 lets me buy in twice.

    2nd I can get a feel for the table and if its good I can top it up $300 anytime I like.

    Also, a little less important to me, I believe there is a short stack advantage at NLH. I can build a pot to my full $150 stack without having to be up against only the strongest hands. I can get all in in two streets and not give a big draw any leverage against me. I don't leave when I get up. I like playing deeper as well.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    I figured $53 was actually pretty big raise by 1/2 standards.

    I wasn't at the game and you were obviously, but $53 doesn't seem like a big raise, even at 1/2, when there's already $72 in the pot. I think you needed to focus on UTG. Once he calls, everyone is calling no matter what their cards are. And I think that's the case specifically because it is 1/2. Most of the players don't know that they should fold. So I disagree with your range assignment that only certain strong hands are calling that raise. People may think you have that range and they want to crack it.

    Now that the pre-flop calls are sorted out you're in a weird spot having about $400 with a pot of $289. And honestly I'm not sure what the best play is at this point. Hopefully others will chime in on this spot.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    Where I play 1/2 NL, the min buy is $100 and max buy is $300. I used to always buy in for the max. This year I started experimenting with $100 buy ins and I am currently settled at $150. I like two things about starting small.

    1st I try to limit my losses to $300. Its not a law but rule. We'll the wife thinks its a law. And $150 lets me buy in twice.

    2nd I can get a feel for the table and if its good I can top it up $300 anytime I like.

    Also, a little less important to me, I believe there is a short stack advantage at NLH. I can build a pot to my full $150 stack without having to be up against only the strongest hands. I can get all in in two streets and not give a big draw any leverage against me. I don't leave when I get up. I like playing deeper as well.

    OK. Cool. I was just curious.
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    I wish I could still fix my original post. As Skors and In the Dark pointed out, I say everyone calls. I don't clear up that two folds happen and just felt like everyone calls.

    Anyway It's 'only' 5 way to flop and the folders are the 2nd caller. The aggro guy. Go figure. I have no idea what his thoughts where here because the money is right to call. He must have had real junk. And then weak tight guy in little blind actually folded after all the money was in. So he folded getting 13 to 1.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    Your thinking wrong...sure a bigger raise preflop getting calls would be great..but you in great shape here.

    Great flop...there are not two pairs that anyone has on this flop. Do you think any heart draw or AJ kj lays it down now...

    If you had made it 75 do you think JJ was folding...really you got a great situation...just shove it...if you loose you loose but if you new this flop was comming...I think raising 50 ish and getting 4 callers is probably your highest ev line...
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Eazzy wrote:
    Your thinking wrong...sure a bigger raise preflop getting calls would be great..but you in great shape here.

    Great flop...there are not two pairs that anyone has on this flop. Do you think any heart draw or AJ kj lays it down now...

    If you had made it 75 do you think JJ was folding...really you got a great situation...just shove it...if you loose you loose but if you new this flop was comming...I think raising 50 ish and getting 4 callers is probably your highest ev line...

    By going to something like $50 you are giving the entire table EXCELLENT odds on your stack (a 10x multiplier at a bare minimum before other people call your squeeze). Since AK would never go to this size, the $50 is really just a nutted pocket pair range so anybody who already called can call again for ~$40 getting great odds vs a range that is obviously stacking off on 99% of flops.

    If you go to $75 and everyone folds...fine. Do the same thing with Ax or Kx next time.
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    +1 to Splitsuit, almost exactly what I'd started writing.

    (and thanks for the compliment, Butch.)
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    Butch wrote:
    Big raise pf. BIG. $150 +/-.

    Do think anyone ever calls for this amount? ($150 +/-)

    I see this crazy call all the time.

    Today: I limp UTG w/AA. Moron raise to 17, two in between call. I shove $125. I ONLY get one call from T9s. Another tank folded.

    This is what I live for with a short stack.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    Butch wrote:
    Skors3 wrote:
    I'm curious as to why you buy in for $150.

    Where I play 1/2 NL, the min buy is $100 and max buy is $300. I used to always buy in for the max. This year I started experimenting with $100 buy ins and I am currently settled at $150. I like two things about starting small.

    1st I try to limit my losses to $300. Its not a law but rule. We'll the wife thinks its a law. And $150 lets me buy in twice.

    2nd I can get a feel for the table and if its good I can top it up $300 anytime I like.

    Also, a little less important to me, I believe there is a short stack advantage at NLH. I can build a pot to my full $150 stack without having to be up against only the strongest hands. I can get all in in two streets and not give a big draw any leverage against me. I don't leave when I get up. I like playing deeper as well.

    75BBs is about the worst stack size IMO. You can't play any speculative hands for a raise and a shove over limpers is way too big. So you limp in with the crowd w/44 or 65s and the But pops it. You should fold almost every time.

    My current favorite structure is a 1-3 with a $100 min buy. I can shove over a raise and a call or over 5 limps or ... It's an easy game. There are next to no difficult decisions and it wins.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I understand your reasons for not buying in full, but this stack size in particular is just awkward. If you want to buy in short, buy in for $100. Otherwise, buy in for $200, and if you have the cash and feel comfortable with the table buy in or top off for the full $300.

    Here's one way to look at AA and how much money you should make with it. What is AA worth? In other words, in all the time you've ever played AA in a $1/2 type of game, what do you think your average profit is with the hand? That's basically your own personal EV, give or take to account for small sample size.

    So let's say you raise here (raise more, or shove) and everyone folds. You just won about $75. I don't know what your EV is with AA, but I'm pretty sure it's less than $75.

    Another way to look at it is, hey that scenario is flawed. You have to optimize your value with AA every time you play it in every situation you play it. You shouldn't be happy with folds if you could make more by getting some calls. Well, how do you know everyone would fold if you raised more? If anything, that could be a reason for raising, for actually making more money if they're foolish enough to call an even bigger raise. But folds are by no means a bad thing.

    By the way, the flop play is simple - shove immediately.
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    OK, consensus seems to be that Butch butchered this hand. In my defense I knew was playing with fire a little by 3-betting small. And then again betting smallish when the flop was so good after getting all the callers pre. I thought I wanted to get a call from a draw now at the flop.

    Both times I felt sick at the result. Careful what you ask for.

    I am sure that the pre flop 3-bet size should have been more like 80-100.

    I am sure that I can correctly shove this flop but is that the best way to play it. I cover all but one other player in the hand. The shove would be like 1.3 x pot. Will a fd call this? Will :K? :K? and :Q? :Q? or :A? :J? ? Or do I only get calls from sets and unlikely two pair hands.

    It turned out that after I lead around 1/2 pot, UTG, the original raiser pre, goes all in with a stack just shy of what I have. Fedora takes like 3 minutes to fold. At end of hand he claims to have folded :K? :K? here. It folds back to me.

    So heads up, I probe the other guy. I ask if he has :J? :J?. He says he does. We have been pretty friendly for several hours. I am not sure if he would lie straight out here. He has not been trying to max win here. He lets people off light. Shows cards a lot. But still. Anyway, I told him I believed him but called anyway. I tabled my hand a soon as I called. He did not.

    The run out is a :Q? and a brick. No hearts. No :A?.

    I said 'you win then right?' He says 'no.' He tables his hand its' :Ah:Qh hearts.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Butch wrote:
    And then again betting smallish when the flop was so good after getting all the callers pre. I thought I wanted to get a call from a draw now at the flop.

    Yes the flop is "good", but only in the sense that you can make money by making draws put in too much money. It's not that great a flop if you slowplay because of hands like flush draws, T9, 98, and Jx which has 5 outs to beat you.
    Butch wrote:
    I am sure that I can correctly shove this flop but is that the best way to play it. I cover all but one other player in the hand. The shove would be like 1.3 x pot. Will a fd call this? Will :K? :K? and :Q? :Q? or :A? :J? ?

    It seems like an overbet only in a vacuum. In context, it's really the most normal, natural bet to make since it's your entire stack. Are you betting the pot on the flop and then folding later? No, they all know why you're sticking it in there. You're saying you're committed.

    To answer your question, yes I would expect all those hands you mentioned to call your bet, at least very often they will.
    Butch wrote:
    I tabled my hand a soon as I called. He did not.

    You know, that would be cool if you had the nuts, or AA preflop. But I would never show my cards here. It drives me nuts that so many players just table their hands. You are really losing information. Yes, I know, I know, you don't want to be "that guy" who slowrolls, or slows down the game. But you need to see their cards more. And ESPECIALLY since the guy told you he had JJ. Just wait.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote:
    Eazzy wrote:
    Your thinking wrong...sure a bigger raise preflop getting calls would be great..but you in great shape here.

    Great flop...there are not two pairs that anyone has on this flop. Do you think any heart draw or AJ kj lays it down now...

    If you had made it 75 do you think JJ was folding...really you got a great situation...just shove it...if you loose you loose but if you new this flop was comming...I think raising 50 ish and getting 4 callers is probably your highest ev line...

    By going to something like $50 you are giving the entire table EXCELLENT odds on your stack (a 10x multiplier at a bare minimum before other people call your squeeze). Since AK would never go to this size, the $50 is really just a nutted pocket pair range so anybody who already called can call again for ~$40 getting great odds vs a range that is obviously stacking off on 99% of flops.

    If you go to $75 and everyone folds...fine. Do the same thing with Ax or Kx next time.


    You can not charge one part of a range. You need to price so you charge their entire calling range. If I can get them calling my AA with more then just pairs, I do fine giving them 10 to 1.

    Even if they are calling with only pairs (and I want to pricee so they will call with more), only 2 out of the 6 playres agianst me get anywhere near the right odds. And depending on my reads if only one or tow calls me, I don't have to pay them off.

    I also don't think this size is only made with AA. I make it with my entire range (well probably about 60 but with AA as well and I don't hate the 53). I do it with my entire squeezing range. And sure sometime AJs gets 4 callers and I miss and give up...but sometimes it gets one or two caller and I can out play them.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Butch wrote:
    I was greedy. I wanted some action. I do this too much. My actual over the table thought about the size was that JJ+, AK and AQs will call this and only KK and AA will raise if they can even still be out there.

    So five see the flop for $53 and two more called for $12 but folded for the additional $21. Making the pot 289 (53*5=265 + 12*2=24).

    If you raise smaller than you should "to get action" then we on the forums retain the right to say "neeener neeener neeener" (link for non-english speakers that did not learn this on the elementary school playground) to you when you actually get it. Next time you are tempted to make a small raise like this, don't fear the multi-action, fear having to confess a ridiculous five way pot with a low SPR to the forums.

    Making a solid raise and getting no action is a very fine result. Making a solid raise you will still see plenty of action (yes, you will trust me) I think everyone else already said everything that needed said except for one ting.

    Neener neener neener.
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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Eazzy wrote:
    Even if they are calling with only pairs (and I want to pricee so they will call with more), only 2 out of the 6 playres agianst me get anywhere near the right odds. And depending on my reads if only one or tow calls me, I don't have to pay them off.

    But that is 100% not true. Given the SPR you do have to pay them off.

    I'm just saying...going to ~$50 here in most games is a sizable leak vs going closer to $75
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  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote:
    Eazzy wrote:
    Even if they are calling with only pairs (and I want to pricee so they will call with more), only 2 out of the 6 playres agianst me get anywhere near the right odds. And depending on my reads if only one or tow calls me, I don't have to pay them off.

    But that is 100% not true. Given the SPR you do have to pay them off.

    I'm just saying...going to ~$50 here in most games is a sizable leak vs going closer to $75

    If the SPr tells me I have to pay them off...then by definition...either they have a range greater then sets, and my EV is +, or my SPR is incorrect. SPR is not some magic number that traps you...its a math number depending on their range for getting it in. If you raise less to get action, you cause wider ranges that mean more hands pay you off, or way to many hands fold...either way your EV goes up. My SPR's to commit are much lower then yours...I did the math based on my assumptions to come up with my SPR's...

    IF you have no control over you opponents, and they play great balanced poker then sure make the bigger raises and play the shorter stacks...This is not generally the condition I feal I'm in in most 1-2 games.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wasn't exactly sure what Eazzy was saying, but I think I agree. SPR is part hard science, and part something you have to adjust and calculate on your own based on your particular game situation.

    The number itself is indisputable. The actions you take to arrive at that number, and what you do once you get there, is something you have to adjust by feel.

    Also, SPR tends to break down more and more as the number of players in the pot increases. i.e. it's less useful as a tool as the number of opponents goes up.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    I was kind of curious about the math here. So lets compare the two raising 75, and raising to 53 to get callers...

    Assumptions...a bit tricky...so lets start simply $75 picks up the $84....we have to put $10 in (original call before raising) so we make $74....(where I play no flop no rake.


    Second assumption....we assume on any flop we shove....and to start conservatively we flip over are AA after shoving so they only call with 2 pair+


    Size of effective stack...well lets get an average...stacks were something like 450, 425 300 and 200...thats roughly 350 starting stacks on average...so I assume that what they all have.



    So now we have to decide what ranges are smaller raise gets... The original raiser is descirbed as limping more then raising and probably his preflop raise is a tight ish range....so I assume he checks small pairs and since he called a $41 3 bet with players behind...should be tight but might also be a bit loose since he did call and he would call more often if his range starts a bit wider..

    Lets assume 77-QQ AK AQ AJs kqs and kjs (6% of hands)...His original range lets make it 12% of hands..so he calls about 50% of the time

    now 4 more players called the $40 raise....I got news this is not just pocket pairs calling to set mine....this means they call with a wider range...well 8 players left and 4 called thats 50% range. But of course they probably just had the better part of tighter ranges....so lest make it 20% ...and we got unlucky (or lucky) that they hit this more then 20%. (its also really hard to come up with a range greater then 20% that even loose players call $40 more with)

    THe next question is what was there oringal ranges so we can determin how many will call are $53 bet on average when we raise....well 5 players out of 8 called the original raiser thats 62%...but again we can assume they got a bit lucky tighter range but hit it...So lets use Eds 40% range...So on average out of the 5 players I would expect 50% to call and thats 2 or 3.


    So now I assume that 50% of the time the original raiser calls, and because he calls we face a bit looser then 20% and 3 more callers for a 5 way pot....and 50% of the time the original raiser folds and the callers tighten up a bit and we face 2 more callers for a 3 way pot (18%).

    So 50% of the time we face a 5% ish range and 3 18% ish ranges...
    and 50% we face 2 17% ranges...

    Again are assumption is that no matter what the board is we will shove and they play perfectly here and only call with 2pair +....

    Against 2pair + we have roughly 17% equity

    Off to flopzilla to see how often they hit 2 pair +

    scenario 1 ...1 caller 6% range...and 3 callers 22% range or so...50% of time
    scenario 2....2 callers 18% range... 50% of the time..

    6% range hits 2pair + 8% of the time
    22% hits 2 pair + 7% of the time
    18% hits 2 pair + 7% of the time...

    So how often does no one hit 2 pair +.....

    scenario 1 .92 *.93 *.93 *.93 = 74%
    scenario 2 .93 *.93 = 86%

    So now we assume an average starting stack of 350...

    now pot sizes....
    scenario 1. 5 * 53 + 2 * 12 = 289
    thus the EV..
    (289 -.51) *.74 = 162.86 when they don't hit and fold
    *((600 + 289)*.16)-350)*.24 = -51

    for a +EV =163-51 = 112

    or scenario 2 first raiser folds and we play against slightly tighter ranges..and a 3 way pot..


    pot is (3 * 53) +(3*12) = 195

    now 86% of the time they fold
    .86 * 195 - 53 = 114.7

    14% they hit 2 pair and we have 17% equity..
    (((600 + 195) *.17)-300 )*.14= -23

    So the ev is 115 - 23 = 92

    So the EV of the $53 bet (41 more) is .50 * 92 + .5 * 112 = 102


    So making a bet that picks up preflop earns $84 and making a bet that gets lots of callers with no one putting in another sent unless they hit 2 pair or better nets you $102...

    Now of course these were some pretty simple assumptions...they actually hit top pair or an over pair 17% of the time and would get it in some % to your shove (they face the same low SPR and may feel they have to commit) which increases the argument for the smaller raise.

    They also may call the $75 bet with some range...which increase the argument for the larger raise.

    But with out a doubt if they try to crack you with a large range, you are gaining equity the larger the range and the more players call trying to crack you.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The simpler the case, the easier SPR is. For example, some people get it all in preflop with AA, and hope for only 1 caller. They don't want more than that. That's actually bad thinking. If you're all in preflop with AA, you want 9 callers, EV-wise.

    It's really playability of the hand postflop with money to go where it gets fuzzy with more players in the hand.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I appreciate that math Eazzy!

    I would argue that you don't only get called by 2pr+ when you commit postflop though. That assumption is the key. I assume 1.) players call too wide preflop and 2.) players call too wide postflop. Which is the key determinant when it comes to choosing the size.

    SPR isn't a dungeon number, I agree. But as the SPR gets smaller and smaller, the bigger and bigger the error when you fold incorrectly. Sure, if the SPR is small and they show you a set and the pot odds are off you can fold. But the margin of error is typically in our favor to stack off when you make the same #2 assumption I made above.
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yesh, the ev of the $53 raise changes when he folds out his equity, whether correctly or not, as was originally suggested as part of the reason to make it a pot builder.

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