Folded a set

AbbbottAbbbott Red Chipper Posts: 24
edited November 2015 in Live Poker Hands
It's been over a year, and I still think about this hand.

2-5 table at Foxwoods, catching cards like crazy, I have about $1200 in my stack. In the BB with JJ

Villian raises in middle position to $20, two callers. I called, did not want to reraise, just hoping for a good flop.

Flop comes out J-Q-2 Rainbow, I hit a set and checked, Villian bets $60, 2 others fold, I reraised to $150. Villain thought a long, long time, and reraised me to $375. His reraise was very smooth, I watched him the entire time, I couldn't see his hands shake, but he pushed the chips in very slowly which is a sign of stregnth. I thought about all the hands he would reraise with. Aces and Kings were two, Queens was the third. This guy was good player, I had played with him for a few hours at that table and we had equal stacks.

I talked to him for a bit, trying to see if I could get anything, He sat, very relaxed, I told the table I'm making a huge laydown here" and turned up my Jacks face up. The table was telling me I was an idiot. Villian did not turn over his cards, even though many players asked him to.

I thought that was funny, because if he had bluffed me, he would have killed to show everyone, maybe even if he had KK he might have shown, and a lot of players like to show AA, so I was perplexed. Anyway, the table jarred at me for about the next twenty minutes. After about thirty minutes, the villian racked his chips (he had about $1500) and walked over t me and whispered that he had a set of queens. I thanked him, Was he full of it, or just a nice guy recognizing a good laydown, I'll never know, but I still struggle with if it was a good laydown or not

Comments

  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    Wow ... You're a much better player than me, I wouldn't have got away from that. Either the best or worst Laydown you've ever made in your life I suspect. Not even pros would fold this I doubt. Even if you felt you could read this guy like a book I'm still not sure it's a good fold to be honest.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I don't fold there unless he literally shows me QQ. There are combos of other hands he can have vs the 3 combos of QQ (I mean, there are 3 combos of 22 and 3 combos of QJ that he would have that level of confidence with)
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  • AbbbottAbbbott Red Chipper Posts: 24
    Thanks

    I was pretty confident, can read body language pretty well, Went to a seminar with Joe Navaro a few years ago, Another reason was how much we each had in our stacks, If I only had $500 it would have been an easy all in. Just to make myself feel good, I'm going to go with his statement after that he had the Queens and sleep a little better... LOL
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I personally think if we aren't comfortable getting middle set in for 200bb when villain can easily have hands other than topset that we shouldn't be playing 200bb+ in the first place (I don't meant to say this rudely...just an honest assessment since I've seen other people say things like this before)
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  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 243 ✭✭✭
    I generally lie to folks I may have bluffed or those that make a bad laydown. I want them to be comfortable.

    I go broke with your jacks. Every freeeekin time.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I wish people folded sets to me
  • Morgan_BMorgan_B Red Chipper Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Should hero be check calling his entire continuing range to protect the weaker part of his c-range? There's not enough value hands hero can represent. Is this right and can someone explain it better?
  • aaarrgghaaarrggh Red Chipper Posts: 85
    1. if ever i find someone that folds his set of J vs. my set of Q i will be very worried i could be holding my cards wrong and people can see them

    2. if anyone ever folds his set of J face up to me in a similar situation I will always whisper to him that i had a set of Q regardless of what i had, simply because i want him to do it again and i just got incredibly useful info from him; several RCP coaches stress you should never show your cards if you don't have to

    3. no judgement here, I recently did very similar thing, was mildly tilted/tired and folded a straight face up because i was convinced villain had a flush, was shown two pairs (this guy was very eager to show what a great player he was) and felt like a complete idiot but it reinforced several important concepts for future reference
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
  • swally234swally234 Red Chipper Posts: 8
    As played here I think I would have to get it in. I know you had a lot of money on the table, but if you're not prepared to push it in then I feel that you shouldn't have it on the table.

    I think the difficulty here comes from the lack of information to be able to assign a range to V. You did mention that he is a very good player, which means his post flop ability lets him make these kind of plays with weaker hands than your set.

    I also think that your check raise on the flop is incorrect if you are not willing to stack off at this point. Typically you would be check raising for value from a weaker range - so you must go in to this move with the intention of committing to the hand at this point.

    If we look at the play pre flop, from middle position V is capable of opening a wide range of hands (lots of :Q? ?X? , :2? :2? , :A? ?X? and lots more) which may at least partially connect with this flop. I feel by 3 betting here you can whittle down the hand possibilities that V can continue with, therefore have more information to make your decision post flop.

    If you look at the hand on the flop from V's point of view, he is asking himself which hands you would flat with pre flop, but raise with on this flop; much of which he could easily be ahead of with KQ, AQ, AJ, KJ, 22 etc as it's more likely you have a hand like JT, J9 or a small pair, therefore he may seem so calm as he thinks he is miles ahead with AQ or two pair.

    These are my thoughts on the hand - though I would be interested to get some opinions on them.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I don't get is why no one has asked how much villain has in his stack. Or maybe we're to assume the stack he cashed out with was the stack he played the hand with.

    Personally, if I ever folded a set of jacks here, I would never show the table. You would then be left wondering in every hand how that affected how they're playing against you, and you'd be very confused.
  • aaarrgghaaarrggh Red Chipper Posts: 85
    jeffnc wrote:
    What I don't get is why no one has asked how much villain has in his stack. Or maybe we're to assume the stack he cashed out with was the stack he played the hand with.

    Personally, if I ever folded a set of jacks here, I would never show the table. You would then be left wondering in every hand how that affected how they're playing against you, and you'd be very confused.


    the original post says:

    This guy was good player, I had played with him for a few hours at that table and we had equal stacks.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    aaarrggh wrote:
    This guy was good player, I had played with him for a few hours at that table and we had equal stacks.

    Oh :)
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Abbbott wrote:
    I thought that was funny, because if he had bluffed me, he would have killed to show everyone, maybe even if he had KK he might have shown, and a lot of players like to show AA, so I was perplexed.
    I'd tell you anything I thought you wanted to hear if it meant you were going to lay down anything but the nuts to me. I'll call you 'your majesty' if it allows me to run you over time and time again. Folding the second nuts toe a 3 bet on the flop seems crazy to me. Wouldn't Villain be just as confident with KKs+?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This hand is all about hero's read in the situation. He feels he did the right thing based on the vibe he got from his opponent. Some people would never fold here. Is it because folding is always wrong? Is it because they're not paying to the subtleties of their opponent's tells or "aura"? I don't know. This debate is probably similar to folding KK preflop, which some people would never do.

    When we analyze hand examples, the hero is really the only one who knows all the details. You can describe a hand any way you want to bias the results one way or the other (not saying the OP is misrepresenting anything.)

    If I come here and say "I have :Ks:Qs and the board is :Ac:Ts:7c:4s:2s. The pot is $1,000 and my opponent bets $3. My opponent never bets on the river unless he has the nuts. What should I do?"

    Well, why did the person even come here asking the question? He already knows what he should do based on the information he provided. He should fold. Of course we can ask him how he could know villain never bets the river without the nuts, but that's a different conversation.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    You know a read is a read, i can't tell you otherwise... I personally feel he does this with more than a set of QQ but sir you deserve a MVP award.
    -Rello

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  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 244 ✭✭
    In game I call like 100% of the time.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    If the only possible hands he can have at this decision point are QQ, KK, AA, then you are winning 80% of the time, combos-wise. I go broke here.
  • ScottValScottVal Red Chipper Posts: 108
    I assume you bought in for $500, and built up your stack to $1200, over several hours' time. Now the nightmare scenario occurs, you're up against a larger stack in a raised pot, and he three-bets the flop, and you don't have the nuts. Why couldn't he be polite and play small-ball poker like a large stack is supposed to?

    I feel your pain, and I agree it's a very tough spot.

    And then there's the strong read that you got, that he had you beat.

    I remember once watching a reg fold middle set on the flop (face up), and his opponent then showed an overpair (pocket kings). The guy who folded seemed embarrassed, and he promptly grabbed his chips and left.

    On the other hand, one time I played pocket aces in a three-bet pot which had three players on the flop. The flop was all diamonds, and I didn't have the :Ad . One of the players gave me the vibe that he was real excited about his hand, and made a big bet, the other player called, and I decided to fold, even though there wasn't that much money left. The other two players went to showdown, and sure enough the excited player did have the flush with :Ad:Kd . The other player had pocket queens for an overpair on the flop.

    So, yea, none of us were there with you, we were not there to look this villain in the eye and get a read on what he had. I guess you'll never know for sure, but you saved most of your $1200 stack, and gave up a relatively small amount of chips ($170). Sure it's exploitable, but was this guy really capable of exploiting? Don't make these kinds of folds face up! <Grin>
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    Are you potentially playing poker at too high stakes? If we ever get concerned about retaining the absolute $ amount in front of us surely we're playing at the wrong $ game. I appreciate the read might have been spot on and that's purely why we folded ... Though having thought about this more this doesn't seem like a calculated fold ... Indeed you mention; if you only had $500 in front of you this was an easy call. Or was it more about protecting a winning session?

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