Ways to improve...

dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
edited January 2017 in General Concepts
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This is what I need to work on. I haven't done it over a week yet bet I am actively looking for these spots in my sessions to take advantage of.

What I gather that these will do for me:

1. In the long run, it helps me get paid off more when players see I don't rarely bet rivers, I USUALLY bet them. when it works the percentage of times when I have air, it adds to my bottom line nicely.

2. Along the lines of 1, you almost have to pay me off when I have it and they have a 2nd best hand.

3. Turn hands in bluffs sometimes in the right spots?
Value bet hands like M.P. and stuff vs. the right players?

For the longest, I would check B.P. A high, even M.P. sometimes... even HU. Terrible, I know, but I was a nit for a long time. I was scared of every scare card when significant pressure was applied. I remember how that felt, so that helps a ton when I have trouble working up the courage to bet in these spots myself.

I'm just trying to get some examples so I know EXACTLY what to look for. What do ya'll think? I ask b/c I'm probably only seeing some of the positive effects it can have and am missing some completely. The more I know it does for me, the more I'll do it. It's been on my mind constantly. Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,070 -
    that's a good list of 3 things to focus on during sessions imo.
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  • rvansandtrvansandt Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    Yes. Definitely good. I too, do not do this as often as I should. I recently purchased SplitSuit's Live Poker Player Journal so that I can have better records on how these things work out for me. I just need to get over feeling self conscious at the table when I'm recording hands...
  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    I remember Fossil man writing in his notepad after Mike Matusow beat him in a hand like 10 years ago in the WSOP and Norm was saying something like "I do not like that guy" as Greg was scribbling away and the camera was focused on him writing. I'm sure he took a lot of flack for that at the time from some players.

    Look at Raymer now. I'd feel the same way if I was mostly playing live but even then, I'd either work up the nerve to do it or find an alternate method. Maybe take your book bag w/ you when you go to the bathroom and jot it down away from the tables but before you go to the stalls.

    Maybe you can download an app on your phone that records vocal notes and talk into it while you walk around the poker room for a minute and get all the action down through the app. Later, when you get home... fill in the blanks in the book playing back the recordings.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,070 -
    rvansandt wrote:
    Yes. Definitely good. I too, do not do this as often as I should. I recently purchased SplitSuit's Live Poker Player Journal so that I can have better records on how these things work out for me. I just need to get over feeling self conscious at the table when I'm recording hands...

    Awesome! Let me know how you like keeping records with the journal =)
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    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
  • JCWJCW Red Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
    I have on many occasion taken notes on hands in a notebook. Once I did it for three weeks straight and gotten over 2k hands in notes. And it has helped me.

    A lot of people around town recognize me. I got a lot of jabs about it. A few people hated that I didn't it. But now everyone has forgotten about it and it never comes up.

    Which is funny because I have been thinking of taking another 2k worth of notes.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    I can tell you from experience, not betting rivers enough will hurt your winrate SOOO MUCH!! I'm glad your working on that and i am looking forward to seeing your results and insight on it. :)
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
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  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    Thanks man, one of the slides I made from this series has a quote on value betting....

    "when in doubt, bet!"

    I have taken this to heart and lately, it seems to backfire a fair share but I know it's too small of a sample so far to draw any realistic conclusions from them. I will keep firing away and I will be posting hands on this matter to get more insight.
  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    So I've been working on firing thin rivers bets, or at least they're thin for me. I used to always check in these spots in the past, fearing the worst... not anymore. In the first few weeks, I didn't get the results I wanted, often getting raised and losing the pot. It's definitely evened out a ton lately. I'm getting a ton of calls on the river with the best hand now and it's adding to my bottom line nicely.

    According to Jonathan Little, when you have a hand that should be good on the river MOST of the time, betting 1/3 pot will show enough profit in the long run. Occasionally being called w/ a better hand will still keep this bet sizing profitable. I have taken this advice to heart and it seems to be working. Plus, if you get raised, you're not committing yourself w/ this sizing. I also like to induce raises by randomly throwing in post-flop bets w/ this sizing. That way, it's hard to tell if I'm value betting thin or inducing w/ monsters. I think this balances my sizing very nicely. I plan on using this sizing in 3bet+ pots to confuse my opponents even more. Especially on really dry boards when I don't have to worry about too many bad cards that will put me behind or kill my action.


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP: 91 BB (VPIP: 15.52, PFR: 3.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
    CO: 91.1 BB (VPIP: 44.44, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 9)
    BTN: 54.2 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 60.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
    Hero (SB): 152.9 BB
    BB: 320.6 BB (VPIP: 63.24, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 71)
    UTG: 125.2 BB (VPIP: 21.74, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 23)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:heart: T:spade:

    UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold

    Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) Q:club: Q:diamond: 4:diamond:
    Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, fold

    Turn: (18 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
    Hero checks, BTN checks

    River: (18 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
    Hero bets 5.5 BB, BTN calls 5.5 BB

    [spoil]Hero shows T:heart: T:spade: (Two Pair, Queens and Tens)

    Hero wins 27.6 BB
    Rake paid 1.4 BB[/spoil]


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BTN: 123.4 BB (VPIP: 18.46, PFR: 13.85, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 65)
    SB: 35.7 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
    BB: 78.8 BB (VPIP: 24.49, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
    Hero (UTG): 170.7 BB
    MP: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
    CO: 111.7 BB (VPIP: 45.10, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 52)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: A:heart:

    Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

    Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) T:diamond: 9:club: 5:club:
    SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 12 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 12 BB

    Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
    BB checks, Hero checks

    River: (36 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
    BB checks, Hero bets 12 BB, fold

    [spoil]Hero wins 34.2 BB
    Rake paid 1.8 BB[/spoil]


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 101.4 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 19)
    BTN: 29.7 BB (VPIP: 31.51, PFR: 1.37, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 74)
    Hero (SB): 224.5 BB
    BB: 68 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
    UTG: 97.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:heart: 7:club:

    fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 1.5 BB, BB calls 1 BB

    Flop: (6 BB, 3 players) 2:heart: 5:heart: 4:heart:
    Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold

    Turn: (12 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
    Hero checks, CO checks

    River: (12 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:
    Hero bets 3.5 BB, fold

    [spoil]Hero wins 11.4 BB
    Rake paid 0.6 BB[/spoil]


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 69.9 BB (VPIP: 15.15, PFR: 6.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 33)
    BTN: 190.9 BB (VPIP: 26.56, PFR: 14.06, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 64)
    SB: 42.3 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
    Hero (BB): 143 BB
    UTG: 225.5 BB (VPIP: 63.64, PFR: 29.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 46)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:club: K:club:

    fold, fold, fold, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero checks

    Flop: (2 BB, 2 players) K:heart: 8:diamond: 4:heart:
    SB checks, Hero bets 1 BB, SB calls 1 BB

    Turn: (4 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond:
    SB checks, Hero bets 2 BB, SB calls 2 BB

    River: (8 BB, 2 players) 3:heart:
    SB checks, Hero bets 2.5 BB, fold

    [spoil]Hero wins 7.6 BB
    Rake paid 0.4 BB[/spoil]

    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BB: 88.8 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 27.27, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 11)
    UTG: 127.6 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 45.45, 3Bet Preflop: 40.00, Hands: 11)
    MP: 260.3 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
    Hero (CO): 94 BB
    BTN: 113.2 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 27.27, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
    SB: 77.3 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: T:club:

    UTG raises to 3.2 BB, fold, Hero calls 3.2 BB, fold, SB calls 2.7 BB, fold

    Flop: (10.6 BB, 3 players) 4:spade: 9:heart: J:spade:
    SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

    Turn: (10.6 BB, 3 players) 3:spade:
    SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 4 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB

    River: (18.6 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
    UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, fold

    [spoil]Hero wins 17.7 BB
    Rake paid 0.9 BB[/spoil]


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BB: 99 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 9)
    CO: 50 BB
    Hero (BTN): 100.8 BB
    SB: 49 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has K:spade: J:club:

    CO checks, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

    Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) J:heart: Q:heart: 8:spade:
    CO checks, Hero checks

    Turn: (10.5 BB, 2 players) T:spade:
    CO bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

    River: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
    CO checks, Hero bets 4 BB, CO calls 4 BB

    [spoil]Hero shows K:spade: J:club: (One Pair, Jacks)

    Hero wins 19.5 BB
    Rake paid 1 BB[/spoil]
    He had T7o.


    What do ya'll think? Seems like a win/win/win to me.
    1. You get more calls from wider ranges w/ this sizing.
    2. Lose less when you get called or raised compared to 1/2 - 2/3+ PSB's.
    3. If you get raised and end up folding a thin VB, you can flip this idea by using the same sizing to induce w/ made hands post-flop.


    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 77.8 BB (VPIP: 28.81, PFR: 16.95, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 59)
    BTN: 225.2 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 28.57, Hands: 16)
    Hero (SB): 190 BB
    BB: 173.1 BB (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 28)
    UTG: 146.5 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: 8:spade:

    UTG calls 1 BB, fold, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, BB checks

    Flop: (4 BB, 4 players) 8:heart: T:diamond: J:heart:
    Hero bets 3 BB, BB raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

    Turn: (20 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
    Hero checks, BB bets 15 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

    River: (50 BB, 2 players) T:club:
    Hero bets 13 BB, BB raises to 44.5 BB, Hero raises to 166 BB and is all-in, BB calls 104.6 BB and is all-in

    [spoil]Hero shows T:spade: 8:spade: (Full House, Tens full of Eights)

    Hero wins 330.8 BB
    Rake paid 17.4 BB[/spoil]

    BvB cooler, he flopped it w/ 97o. :)
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    Not a bad list....but if you really want to improve..write the hands you get to the river with (or any other hand your betting or checking but think you should bet)..then

    DO THE MATH.

    put them on a range, that calls that folds to you bet count the combos and figure if the line is +EV. Change your assumptions and do it again...see if you have enough equity to justify the bets.

    After doing this and you will find that your assumptions inmprove...(you thought your all in bluff on the river would fold out a weak Ace, player type X called you off with a Week Ace probably you should ajust your assumptions...

    Mantras like when in doubt bet, or go for thin value...are ok to a point...but once you start doing the math you will begin to see where they really fail, and as you do the math and watch your game and our confidence will begin to sore.

    I can remember arguing in a 2+2 post that everyone wanted to bet AK on some K high flop on the river 100% (all saying you have to go for value) and how the hand played out against this player, I could not find one single value combination given the assumption the original post had put out that this guy could have to call the value bet. No one could give me a single hand that he could have that he called with that hero beat but they all still wanted to follow their montra and bet the river.
  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    Great advice, I'm still getting used to gauging how often a board hits a villain's range given his stats and player type but using Flopzilla for almost 2 months has helped me to at least get a ballpark figure. I'm also continuously working on getting better w/ break-even points as I use Flopzilla to do the math w/ my bet sizing. What you suggest sounds like my next step in progressing and really examining my decisions.

    Thanks for your advice and I will keep that in mind when I feel I have improved in the areas I'm working on now to build a solid foundation for more advanced ways of improving and detecting leaks. I feel like in another month or two, I should be ready to comfortably make your suggestions a part of my daily routine.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    I bit board, so I decided to take a closer look at the hands you posted here. What I noticed is you don't seem to be considering other lines. Sure you value bets are profitable on the river, but other lines may be more profitable. Please note just being a bit of a devils advocate to get you thinking along better lines and I'm board because the women are upstairs cooking.

    Hand 1
    PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP: 91 BB (VPIP: 15.52, PFR: 3.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
    CO: 91.1 BB (VPIP: 44.44, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 9)
    BTN: 54.2 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 60.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 5)
    Hero (SB): 152.9 BB
    BB: 320.6 BB (VPIP: 63.24, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 71)
    UTG: 125.2 BB (VPIP: 21.74, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 23)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:heart: T:spade:

    UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold

    Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) Q:club: Q:diamond: 4:diamond:
    Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, fold

    Turn: (18 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
    Hero checks, BTN checks

    River: (18 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
    Hero bets 5.5 BB, BTN calls 5.5 BB


    first hand is pretty straight forward and fine...maybe a bigger bet on the river should be considered. How many more A high or 55-99 does he fold to half pot bet or larger bet as opposed to a !/3 pot bet..

    Hand 2..
    BTN: 123.4 BB (VPIP: 18.46, PFR: 13.85, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 65)
    SB: 35.7 BB (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
    BB: 78.8 BB (VPIP: 24.49, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
    Hero (UTG): 170.7 BB
    MP: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
    CO: 111.7 BB (VPIP: 45.10, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 52)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: A:heart:

    Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

    Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) T:diamond: 9:club: 5:club:
    SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 12 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 12 BB

    Turn: (36 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
    BB checks, Hero checks

    River: (36 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
    BB checks, Hero bets 12 BB, fold

    Second hand...Probably thin value on the river (lots of draws missed so may get called by weeker Kt QT,t8s A9,K9s Q9s type hands...but I think if your going to go for value on the river a much better plan is to bet 1/2 pot (maybe more) on the turn....This is going to be called by a lot of his draws,
    which makes up a ot of the hands I posted above...there are just a ton of pair and draw and combo draws that call a reasonable bet on the turn....

    Sure he can have not completed the straight or got 2 pair...but these are discounted as villain would have possably check/raised the flop or dunked out the turn. of course if Villain was Agro, you might perfer checking back the turn (avoiding a draw type hand check raising you) and pick up the bluff on the river...

    Hand 3
    CO: 101.4 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 19)
    BTN: 29.7 BB (VPIP: 31.51, PFR: 1.37, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 74)
    Hero (SB): 224.5 BB
    BB: 68 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
    UTG: 97.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:heart: 7:club:

    fold, CO raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 1.5 BB, BB calls 1 BB

    Flop: (6 BB, 3 players) 2:heart: 5:heart: 4:heart:
    Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold

    Turn: (12 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:
    Hero checks, CO checks

    River: (12 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:
    Hero bets 3.5 BB, fold

    not sure how much value there is by betting the river here. As he did not bet the turn, there may be thin value form AK, or A5s a4s A2s 66...and these may not even call a !1/3 bet.

    Consider checking to induce a bluff....he has a lot more combos of 2 big cards that wiffed and may now bluf...my guess is that even if he bluffs 1/4 of his missed hands, he still bets more then he calls.


    Hand 4
    CO: 69.9 BB (VPIP: 15.15, PFR: 6.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 33)
    BTN: 190.9 BB (VPIP: 26.56, PFR: 14.06, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 64)
    SB: 42.3 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
    Hero (BB): 143 BB
    UTG: 225.5 BB (VPIP: 63.64, PFR: 29.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 46)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:club: K:club:

    fold, fold, fold, SB calls 0.5 BB, Hero checks

    Flop: (2 BB, 2 players) K:heart: 8:diamond: 4:heart:
    SB checks, Hero bets 1 BB, SB calls 1 BB

    Turn: (4 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond:
    SB checks, Hero bets 2 BB, SB calls 2 BB

    River: (8 BB, 2 players) 3:heart:
    SB checks, Hero bets 2.5 BB, fold

    Hand 4 this is pretty thin...The problem here what your putting him on. Its only be 13 hands but he did have a vpip of 76% so going for value on the river I guess is ok. However I think against this guy you lost a lot more vlaue betting small on the flop and turn....I mean loose players have very inelastic ranges...he never folding a flush draw on the flop or the turn, and good chance he does not fold. I mean he had 46 bb and you got, 3 bb of it (5.5 if he had called your river??). I could make an argument for raising pre flop, at a minimum pot the flop and turn against this guy..he's not folding an 8 or a flush draw...he probably playing close to ATC from the SB...so the mumber of K's he has witch you block is a lot less the the Eights and flush draws, and K7 pretty much splits the number of K's your ahead of by half.


    Hand 5..
    BB: 88.8 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 27.27, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 11)
    UTG: 127.6 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 45.45, 3Bet Preflop: 40.00, Hands: 11)
    MP: 260.3 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
    Hero (CO): 94 BB
    BTN: 113.2 BB (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 27.27, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
    SB: 77.3 BB (VPIP: 45.45, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: T:club:

    UTG raises to 3.2 BB, fold, Hero calls 3.2 BB, fold, SB calls 2.7 BB, fold

    Flop: (10.6 BB, 3 players) 4:spade: 9:heart: J:spade:
    SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

    Turn: (10.6 BB, 3 players) 3:spade:
    SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 4 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB

    River: (18.6 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
    UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, fold

    Well after 11 hands UTG raised 45% of hands...you don't think that 3 betting TT might be +EV....Now when he checks the flop...this type of agro player probably has some sort of showdown vlaue....a flop bet with second pair is going to be profitable....I suppose if you were trying to induce, but really he betting all his air..that kind of leaves monsters and showdown value and monsters are even discounted because of the drawy nature of the flop and 2 opponents...and a 45% range hits very few monsters. And if he going for showdown he not auto betting the turn now. The Sb also had a Vpip of 45% so betting the flop is almost a must, there is just so many hands these guys are going to call here.


    Hand 6..
    BB: 99 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 9)
    CO: 50 BB
    Hero (BTN): 100.8 BB
    SB: 49 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has K:spade: J:club:

    CO checks, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB

    Flop: (10.5 BB, 2 players) J:heart: Q:heart: 8:spade:
    CO checks, Hero checks

    Turn: (10.5 BB, 2 players) T:spade:
    CO bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

    River: (12.5 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
    CO checks, Hero bets 4 BB, CO calls 4 BB

    Well my first observation is that CO is a fish...he bought in for 50bb and he posted...

    So there are lots and lots of hands that CO calls with and your ahead of...bet the flop and make it 2/3 to pot...type bet.

    As played his turn bet is so silly, I don't even know what to make of it...and my guess is having called the turn, you get called by more hand for 1/2 pot or bigger river bet....I mean think of what range this guy calls with for a 1/3 bet over 1/2 pot river bet or more...


    Hand 7...

    CO: 77.8 BB (VPIP: 28.81, PFR: 16.95, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 59)
    BTN: 225.2 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 28.57, Hands: 16)
    Hero (SB): 190 BB
    BB: 173.1 BB (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 28)
    UTG: 146.5 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:spade: 8:spade:

    UTG calls 1 BB, fold, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero calls 0.5 BB, BB checks

    Flop: (4 BB, 4 players) 8:heart: T:diamond: J:heart:
    Hero bets 3 BB, BB raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 5 BB

    Turn: (20 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
    Hero checks, BB bets 15 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

    River: (50 BB, 2 players) T:club:
    Hero bets 13 BB, BB raises to 44.5 BB, Hero raises to 166 BB and is all-in, BB calls 104.6 BB and is all-in



    Well against a guy this aggressive, its a bit read dependent but I'm probably just re raising the flop before a bad card hits the turn and kills the action...it's close..if you seen him shoving in flush draws on the flop,I'm beating him in...if he has raised and folded I might keep him on lead...

    As played the river donk is terrible unless you expect him to monkey off or know he overvalues...by your comments I think your trying to balance you range, but its not needed, your just going to loose to much value...If this guy bets big on rivers and you think he might have a missed draw you can check...otherwise shove it...the loose part of lagtard means they call big bets...If you know he attacks blocker bets then its fine.





    As far as I can tell you are just betting way to small against very loose players....I mean consider what range of hands call different bet sizes...and do the math. Make assumptions, and count the combos...depending on your hand, then see how many more combos do they have to call for the smaller bet to be more profitable...1/3 bets are good for thin value against tighter (well a bit tighter) players, but against some of the loose players your playing...Also consider other lines...betting turns and checking rivers, or betting turns and rivers, inducing bluffs rather then value betting....Just because a river value bet if +ev does not make it the bets plan.


    Hope some of these thoughts help.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,874 -
    It is best to put one hand or one concept per post. Keeps things more easy to understand and follow.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    Thanks Eazzy, great points... at least the ones I understand as of now. I was so focused on betting more post-flop for thinner value, more than I'm used to, that I almost have been mindlessly avoiding checking when I think I'm ahead for the most part, knowing that it will be +EV in the long run and not checking to see if there is an even better +EV play that would show more profit.

    I have been checking to induce against these loose types in the last week or so and I'm starting to see how +EV that can be. I'll have to go through some of your points later to understand all of them but that last part definitely hit home. I appreciate it your comments man.
  • dutch81dutch81 Red Chipper Posts: 212
    Doug Hull wrote:
    It is best to put one hand or one concept per post. Keeps things more easy to understand and follow.

    I'll keep this in mind. Sorry, I was going through my DB to show some examples and got carried away. :)

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