Bluffing and Calling.

Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 454 ✭✭
edited November 2015 in General Concepts
I have leaks. I do not pretend I have a perfect game, except..........

BUT--My biggest problem is bluffing the wrong pots. I seem to have a knack for bluffing players with nutted hands. It starts with the only way I can win this pot is to bluff. Followed by he is re-raising to bluff me off this pot. In retrospect, I see it was the wrong board to bluff. BUT--While the game is going deciding that in 10-15 seconds is a problem for me.

The online game is anonymous so it leads me to make plays I don't normally make. There also is the AA vs KK aspect of online poker. Those two hands just don't show up together in live action anywhere near the amount of times they show up online. Percentage wise. As I write this, I think maybe the type of hands that draw this kind of action I am bluffing in do not show up as often either. That may be why I think I don't do this live.

Rambling now. I really don't see these type hands often at all. I can play for a week live and not get AA vs KK. How long can I play online without that coming up?

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    It starts with the only way I can win this pot is to bluff.

    This is not a good reason to bet at a pot.
    Followed by he is re-raising to bluff me off this pot. In retrospect, I see it was the wrong board to bluff. BUT--While the game is going deciding that in 10-15 seconds is a problem for me.

    If it does not look like a good pot to bluff, then don't. If it is not clear in the given time, then don't.

    The online game is anonymous so it leads me to make plays I don't normally make.

    It sounds like you know the problems, but make them anyways. Stop.

    There also is the AA vs KK aspect of online poker. Those two hands just don't show up together in live action anywhere near the amount of times they show up online. Percentage wise.

    This is a fallacy.
    People are really bad at estimating the frequencies of rare events. Add in that the rate of hands is so different live versus on-line our brains just don't deal well with it.

    To say the rate is different is to imply that on-line is rigged. It is to imply that no one with the zillions of hands in databases has noticed this discrepancy. Occam's razor says that it is far more likely you are falling for a cognitive bias.
    As I write this, I think maybe the type of hands that draw this kind of action I am bluffing in do not show up as often either. That may be why I think I don't do this live.

    A far more likely explanation is that online players are far better than live players.
    Rambling now. I really don't see these type hands often at all. I can play for a week live and not get AA vs KK. How long can I play online without that coming up?

    Do not measure in weeks, do not measure in hours. Measure in hands. Assuming you see it every time AA meets KK, it will still take a long time to even out the frequency.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • thepokermonkthepokermonk Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭✭
    Wow. Does any other site give such thorough answers from their founding pros? Thank you so much Doug (and the other pros) for participating so consistently and enthusiastically in the forums. It really is one of the major things that separates this site from the others. Keep up the good work!
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭✭
    therob1776 wrote:
    Wow. Does any other site give such thorough answers from their founding pros? Thank you so much Doug (and the other pros) for participating so consistently and enthusiastically in the forums. It really is one of the major things that separates this site from the others. Keep up the good work!

    Exactly!

    This is one of the major reasons I always go out of my way to tell anyone who cares to listen that they should become members of this board/site. I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

    Lets be honest... The pros who run this site could be doing any number of other things. Taking the time to respond to posts, and engage in discussion, on a free forum is a choice these guys make.

    One of ways to encourage this type of behavior from the pros to continue is to encourage more people to join the site. It just makes sense for all of us, and truth be told, is a benefit to anyone who does so.

    So get out there and spread the word how great this forum and site is. It is a win-win for us all.
    Twitter = @ChipXtractor
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    Lets be honest... The pros who run this site could be doing any number of other things. Taking the time to respond to posts, and engage in discussion, on a free forum is a choice these guys make.

    One of ways to encourage this type of behavior from the pros to continue is to encourage more people to join the site. It just makes sense for all of us, and truth be told, is a benefit to anyone who does so.

    So get out there and spread the word how great this forum and site is. It is a win-win for us all.

    Thank you.

    Yes, your financial support is what allows us to do this. We appreciate it.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 454 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote:
    It starts with the only way I can win this pot is to bluff.

    This is not a good reason to bet at a pot.
    Followed by he is re-raising to bluff me off this pot. In retrospect, I see it was the wrong board to bluff. BUT--While the game is going deciding that in 10-15 seconds is a problem for me.

    If it does not look like a good pot to bluff, then don't. If it is not clear in the given time, then don't.

    The online game is anonymous so it leads me to make plays I don't normally make.

    It sounds like you know the problems, but make them anyways. Stop.

    There also is the AA vs KK aspect of online poker. Those two hands just don't show up together in live action anywhere near the amount of times they show up online. Percentage wise.

    This is a fallacy.
    People are really bad at estimating the frequencies of rare events. Add in that the rate of hands is so different live versus on-line our brains just don't deal well with it.

    To say the rate is different is to imply that on-line is rigged. It is to imply that no one with the zillions of hands in databases has noticed this discrepancy. Occam's razor says that it is far more likely you are falling for a cognitive bias.
    As I write this, I think maybe the type of hands that draw this kind of action I am bluffing in do not show up as often either. That may be why I think I don't do this live.

    A far more likely explanation is that online players are far better than live players.
    Rambling now. I really don't see these type hands often at all. I can play for a week live and not get AA vs KK. How long can I play online without that coming up?

    Do not measure in weeks, do not measure in hours. Measure in hands. Assuming you see it every time AA meets KK, it will still take a long time to even out the frequency.
    Thank you very much. I appreciate the answer that show you read my post and put answers that can help me. I am copying this to read and re-read for a while. Especially, online players are better than live. SplitSuit recommended me the 3 bet video. I am studying it. Not just watching, but studying. I stop the vid and look up terms. I pull out my poker cruncher and try to do the same things he does in the vid. I also think the site is great!
  • Morgan_BMorgan_B Red Chipper Posts: 262 ✭✭
    In my experience live players are way more likely to limp in with KK+ and cold call instead of 3-bet. Online 99% of the time KK+ is 3-bet, 4-bet, jam. That and the fact that you're playing 100 times as many hands in the same amount of time is why it seems to come up more often... and the fact that you would need months of online play and probably a year or more of live play for the sample sizes to be significant in this situation.
    I seem to have a knack for bluffing players with nutted hands

    Online players will typically have much stronger ranges than live players. Live players just play way too much junk. By the way online players will be much better at calling your bluffs. Sometimes they'll be fish calling when they definitely should have folded but often they'll just be thinking players bluff catching when your play doesn't make sense or when you have too many bluffs in your range.
    deciding that in 10-15 seconds is a problem for me

    Are you playing on Bovada? Play the ring games where you have more time to make your decision. For now focus on quality rather than quantity. You can play 4 tables of ring games at once each with a 30 second time bank.

    If your playing against anonymous opponents my advice (actually this is advice whether or not you're playing against anonymous opponents) ... my advice is to use Flopzilla or Equilab and put in all of your preflop ranges. I'm not just talking about open-raising ranges... I'm talking about MP vs. UTG, CO vs. UTG, BTN vs. UTG, SB vs. UTG... CO vs. UTG + 1 caller, BTN vs. UTG + 1 caller, SB vs. UTG + 1 caller... MP vs. limper, CO vs. limper... You need to really think about these situations, which hands are you cold-calling, which hands are you 3-betting for value, which hands are you 3-betting as a bluff... which hands are good to squeeze from the BTN as opposed to which hands are good to squeeze from the SB... After you open-raise which hands are you going to call a 3-bet with, which hands are you going to 4-bet for value, which hands are you going to 4-bet bluff... Think about all of the possibilities and input all of these possible ranges into a software like Flopzilla. Then while you're playing you can quickly hover over your Flopzilla range for the particular situation and your decision will have been thought out and pre-determined. As you learn more you can tweak your ranges and make them better and better. Showing up with the right types of hands in the right situations preflop is almost half of the battle. If you're playing the wrong hands or not 3-betting enough you've got an uphill battle.

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