1-2 nl

bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
edited November 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Tell me how horribly I played this hand and how u would have played it differently on every street.

Table playing very tight other than one lag behind me. Hero has been playing aggressively pulling off 1 3 bet from the button and a squeeze. Tag showed he folded JJ when he opened a straddled pot and I 3 bet from the button with A10 s

Hand:

2 limps
Button:Hero (350) :Jc :4c

Hero thinks he doesn't want to raise bc he will surly get called at this point as he has been playing aggressive Tag in pot that recently showed Jj and a loose passive fish that never folds also in pot. Hero likes to play in position vs passive fish Hero calls. Sb completes be checks

Pot:10

Flop: :9c :Td :7c

Checks around hero bets 7

Sb: just sat down, no info on player calls.

Pot: 24

Turn: :6d

Sb checks, hero checks due to lack of info on player


River: :8c

Board reads :9c 10d 7c 6d 8c

Villain snap bets 15 into pot of 24

Hero thinks most of sbs range is a straight. Hero thinks his flush is fairly high so if villain has flush there is a good chance I am still good. Hero does think he may not got called with a straight. But still thinks bet is plus ev.

Hero: raised to 45 and villain calls and show Kc 5c and takes the pot.

How bad is my limp on the button? I am quite certain I'm getting called if I raise. Do I just fold that every time? Do I just call the river there?
Do I just call the river?

Comments

  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2015
    I'm not sure what your plan is on the BTN. If your plan is to make the best hand in a multiway pot with J4s that doesn't sound like a good plan to me because J4s is such a weak hand. If you think you can't steal with it then I think you should fold.

    On the flop I'd check in a multiway pot. I don't think you're getting everyone to fold with that board so is this a bet for value hoping that at least 2-3 people call? The bet is so small that it doesn't look like it's an attempt to bluff.

    I'm going to have to write out ranges because the river is an ugly spot. The board is paired so now we have to worry not just about higher flushes, but also that someone has a boat. Our flush is actually not high. People love to play ace suited and king suited hands, and to a lesser extent suited queens. The highest flush we beat is a ten high flush, and the highest possible combinations for that are :Tc :8c , :Tc :6c , :Tc :5c , and lower suited tens which are such garbage that even bad players are likely to fold them. The next highest flushes are :8c :6c , :8c :5c , :8c :4c , etc. You can throw stuff like :7c :6c , :6c :5c , :4c :3c , etc. into your opponents range, but notice how low all these flushes are.

    Perhaps villain made a blocking bet on the river with a straight or maybe even a worse hand. But I also see people bet out with flushes all the time fearing that it will get checked behind them. To me the sizing looks like that of a player trying to get value for his big hand, and he is worried that a bet of 20 or higher will get too many folds in a small pot with such a scary board. As sick at this is I might be talking myself into calling the river after villain bets 15.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's great advice overall for bigpapi, steve, but the board isn't paired.

    For that reason, the only thing I do like about this hand is the raise for value on the end.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    Oh wow, I didn't realize the river was an :8c. Thought it was another 9. Uh yeah, ignore the board is paired comments and that does change things lol.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    Agree a poor play pre got me into this mess.

    Questions about flop bet and river:

    My thinking on flop bet is:

    With an overall passive table, my logic was this. Please tell me where I am wrong:

    1. With a bet, 1/ 5 I hit a flush. In this instance, I am happy I bet bc I am playing a bigger pot with the 4th nut.

    2. When I don't hit I feel:

    A. Betting the flop in position greatly improves my chance of seeing two cards. I feel if I check there is a good chance someone is firing the turn and I will not have the kids to call.

    B I have to have at least a little bit of fold equity that helps

    3. I am good with my river bet there now that we know the board was not paired
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bigpaps wrote:

    My thinking on flop bet is:

    With an overall passive table, my logic was this. Please tell me where I am wrong:

    1. With a bet, 1/ 5 I hit a flush. In this instance, I am happy I bet bc I am playing a bigger pot with the 4th nut.

    2. When I don't hit I feel:

    A. Betting the flop in position greatly improves my chance of seeing two cards. I feel if I check there is a good chance someone is firing the turn and I will not have the kids to call.

    So there are some reasons to bet and some reasons to not bet, but if you are going to do it, bet 10+ and garner a little fold equity. Seven is just fussy and builds the pot on a flop that many hands will call on if given a chance, and you have jack high. You also won't get paid if you hit your gutter without betting, so there is something. However, this free card play has significant drawbacks. Consider:

    No one has range advantage here, and this flop hits all sorts of limping ranges. The free card play seems to take advantage of position, but it involves a check on the turn and now you turn your hand face up and you should not get paid and you have given up the option to bluff convincingly. Instead, you could just check the flop. Now you've really taken advantage of position- all the pairs have given you the option to improve for nothing when they should have bet. Worse, when you get check/raised, you are forced into a bad spot with a non-nut draw against strong ranges.

    So I would argue it's either a check, or a bet/bet/bet line, and that the free card play is not sound because of its drawbacks.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    Gotya. Pot plus for real fold equity. If I am doing that I need to have a plan to triple barrel.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    bigpaps wrote:
    Agree a poor play pre got me into this mess.

    Questions about flop bet and river:

    My thinking on flop bet is:

    With an overall passive table, my logic was this. Please tell me where I am wrong:

    1. With a bet, 1/ 5 I hit a flush. In this instance, I am happy I bet bc I am playing a bigger pot with the 4th nut.

    2. When I don't hit I feel:

    A. Betting the flop in position greatly improves my chance of seeing two cards. I feel if I check there is a good chance someone is firing the turn and I will not have the kids to call.

    B I have to have at least a little bit of fold equity that helps

    3. I am good with my river bet there now that we know the board was not paired

    In response to #1, I think this is one reason to fold J4s PF. Even when you flop a big draw, because you didn't raise PF you will have a harder time winning a big pot. And if the pot does get big, it can actually be something to worry about because you won't have that high of a flush and your two pair won't be as strong as making two pair with hands like AK, A9, K9, QT, etc.

    I really like checking the flop. I think trying to triple barrel a board like that against 4 opponents in a 1-2 NL game is asking for trouble, and you're not going to have much fold equity on the flop because you'll be betting small with a board that hits a lot of hands. If you decide to bet big on the flop, I don't think you're getting many folds and you'll be risking more to win a small pot.

    In response to the plan to bet in the hopes of taking a free card, it's probably true that you get it checked more often to you on the turn, but you do risk a c/r on the flop, and I find that when I do check the flop in spots like this (when I have a flush draw), opponents that bet the turn often bet too small. In other words, I often call the turn because they didn't bet enough to make it unprofitable for me to call. So even when I do check flop and am faced with a turn bet, I get my free card on the flop because I checked, and I just call a small bet on the turn.

    However, other opponents will bet big on the turn because they fear the draws, so you won't always face a bet that's too small.
  • AbbbottAbbbott Red Chipper Posts: 24
    Sorry, I just hate the call preflop. Call :Jc :9c Jc8c there but never J-4

    Biggest mistake is playing too many hands

    Since you called, I would just call the river, several other hands beat you, I understand about the straight. what do you do if he rr you all in?
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    Look on the bright side you'll probably never play hands like :Jc :4c or :Qc :6c ever again!

    These hands are total trash and should always be mucked preflop IMO. Seen so many players play these hands at 1/2 and be v disappointed at showdown getting felted by a higher flush.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    IMO, losing this pot flush-over-flush is a cooler. That's not the reason playing :Jc :4c is a big mistake. The big mistake is all the money you'll lose with top pair/no kicker and trip jacks/no kicker and one card straights that lose to higher two card straights.

    Hitting a flush with :Jc :4c is the same thing is hitting it with :Jc :Tc, which everybody and their mother will play on the button. The better player does lose less overall because he'll play less suited jacks overall, but once you play it and lose flush over flush, not much you can do.

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