Pre-Flop Quiz Score

Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
edited November 2015 in Coaching & Commercial
I took the RCP pre-flop quiz and at the end there is a score. I was curious as to what that score meant. Anyone know?

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Each answer was potentially worth a certain number of points. There was partial credit for certain answers. The percentage is of the points available for correct answers to everything. Points are redeemable for "Attaboys" from and Red Chipper you see.
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  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    That's excellent news. I received a good score (if it's out of 100). So guys, the next time you see me I will be expecting my 'attaboy' from you.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,326 -
    Any plans for a sort of debrief video on this quiz?
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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Any plans for a sort of debrief video on this quiz?

    That's a good idea. Thanks Kat!
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  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I am SLOWLY coming around to these quizzes. Truth be told they are very fun and informative...But, I always hated tests/quizzes.
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 613 ✭✭✭
    I took the quiz. Got an 89%, not knowing what was right or wrong. I got an email telling me the majority answers (as opposed to the right vs. wrong answers) I was against the majority on two questions. I am going to share my opinion on one of them:

    4. What would you do with T8 here?
    34% Fold
    55% Call

    My opinion on this hand:

    Pros to calling
    - A cutoff open raise generally implies weaker cards, as does a button call
    - The one player that implies a stronger hand (the small blind) we have position on
    - Immediate Pot odds (4 to 1) are good
    - Our call closes preflop action
    - "Relative Position" to the pre-flop aggressor (last) is excellent
    - Stacks are somewhat deep for a drawing hand (although SB stack is not shown)

    Pros to Folding
    - "Absolute position" (2nd of 4) is BAD for a drawing hand.
    - T8s, while not total crap, is still a bad hand.
    - If we do hit the flop strong with a straight, 2-pair, full house, it is hard to make money from this position (We bet hard we fold everyone, we bet soft we allow re-draws against up to 3 opponents. We basically hope someone bluffs at us....)
    - If we hit the flop strong with a flush, its hard to make money, but easy to get stacked by a bigger flush (more likely against 3 opponents)
    - If we make a draw, we could easily get blown out of the pot by either of the later position players. (So we need to hope we complete on the flop and then someone tries to blow us out.)

    And I am tending against the majority, in the opinion that folding out-weighs calling. (However if it was an aggressive button who open raised, and the small blind folded, I like calling in this spot, as heads up there are fewer players to redraw against us or who might hit a higher flush.)

    So is the majority opinion that I am a nit by folding in this spot?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    You are getting a great price and stacks aren't too shallow. I'm giving action for sure.
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  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 613 ✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    You are getting a great price and stacks aren't too shallow. I'm giving action for sure.

    But the hand is bad, and the position is bad! Are we going to fight from out of position when we miss flops, or flop draws?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    You are getting a great price and stacks aren't too shallow. I'm giving action for sure.

    But the hand is bad, and the position is bad! Are we going to fight from out of position when we miss flops, or flop draws?

    The hand is totally fine and you are closing action preflop. You are getting 4:1 on a call so the question is "will you be able to win this pot at least 20% of the time?" I certainly assume you can, and yes, we're going to fight for it postflop. I pretty much never call a raise preflop with intentions to solely play fit-or-fold postflop =)
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  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 613 ✭✭✭

    I ran some Equilab simulations, first using the "villain standard" range:

    Equity Win Tie
    CO 26.47% 25.17% 1.30% {66+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo}
    BU 26.47% 25.17% 1.30% {66+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo}
    SB 26.46% 25.16% 1.30% {66+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo}
    BB 20.60% 20.16% 0.44% {T8s}

    And then using Pokerstrategy's recommended "Cutoff Open Raise", "Button Cold Call", and "Blind Cold Call" ranges:

    Equity Win Tie
    CO 32.66% 31.70% 0.96% {44+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T9s,98s,A7o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo}
    BU 23.46% 22.12% 1.35% {TT-22,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,KJo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o}
    SB 23.46% 22.12% 1.35% {TT-22,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,KJo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o}
    BB 20.42% 19.28% 1.14% {T8s}

    And in both cases, we are getting just over 20% equity. And I agree 100% that if this pot is going to be checked down on flop, turn, and river, than making this call is +EV, and we could quit our jobs if we could make this call all day long and not have to worry about action afterwards. The concern is our position in the action afterwards.

    So my questions here:

    (1) Are the opponent ranges reasonable in these simulations? Is this just a slight +EV call for preflop pot odds, or should there be more junk in the opponent's ranges?

    (2) When we have position, shouldn't we be willing to play some hands with -EV preflop pot odds, because we can make up for that (and more) using our positional advantage post flop?

    (3) If you agree with (2) above, than out of position, shouldn't we be good dumping a few hands with a very slight +EV preflop pot odds (especially the drawing hands) because we have a positional disadvantage that's going to cost us that edge (and more) even when we fight our best from out of position post flop?

    Or am I exposing too much of my inner nit here? :-)
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    So my questions here:

    (1) Are the opponent ranges reasonable in these simulations? Is this just a slight +EV call for preflop pot odds, or should there be more junk in the opponent's ranges?

    (2) When we have position, shouldn't we be willing to play some hands with -EV preflop pot odds, because we can make up for that (and more) using our positional advantage post flop?

    (3) If you agree with (2) above, than out of position, shouldn't we be good dumping a few hands with a very slight +EV preflop pot odds (especially the drawing hands) because we have a positional disadvantage that's going to cost us that edge (and more) even when we fight our best from out of position post flop?

    Or am I exposing too much of my inner nit here? :-)

    1. Not really because you included hands in the caller's ranges that would normally get 3bet (like QQ+/AK or TT+/AQ+)
    2. The more of an edge you have postflop (and the stack depth to allow you to use that edge), the more often you want to be giving action preflop when you have position - for sure!
    3. Pot odds are pot odds - you can pass on them if you want, but then your flatting range is like 10% here and your 3bet is maybe 5% and then you are folding 85% of the time...sounds pretty nitty given everything else imo.

    Also remember, T8s flops TP+ and decent draws about 1/3 of the time...so it's not like you're just check/folding the flop if you don't smash 2pr+.
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  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 613 ✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    1. Not really because you included hands in the caller's ranges that would normally get 3bet (like QQ+/AK or TT+/AQ+)
    In the first simulation I did include those, as I understand that is what is being used as the "standard villain range". But in the second simulation, when I used pokerstrategy's "cold call" range, I used:

    BU {TT-22,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,KJo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o}
    SB {TT-22,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,KJo+,QTo+,JTo,T9o,98o}

    which does not include JJ+/AQ+, but does include TT.
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    2. The more of an edge you have postflop (and the stack depth to allow you to use that edge), the more often you want to be giving action preflop when you have position - for sure!
    Absolutely!!!! So the next question is on the inverse of this.
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    3. Pot odds are pot odds - you can pass on them if you want, but then your flatting range is like 10% here and your 3bet is maybe 5% and then you are folding 85% of the time...sounds pretty nitty given everything else imo.

    Whoa! You saying folding T8s is folding folding 85% of hands? Equilab includes T8s beyond 24% of VPIP. If this is an easy call, then do you recommend playing about 30% of hands in this position in this spot?
    [/quote]
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,326 -
    Just slinging out the Equilab whammy bar can be extremely misleading, particularly for blind defenses. For example, if you look at their pre-defined def to MP2 open-raise you'll see it gives: 99-22, ATs-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A7o, KJo+, QJo for 19.3%. This is much heavier in small suited connectors and suited one-gappers than ranges given by the whammy bar which I think are based on hand v hand hot-cold equity.
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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    Whoa! You saying folding T8s is folding folding 85% of hands? Equilab includes T8s beyond 24% of VPIP. If this is an easy call, then do you recommend playing about 30% of hands in this position in this spot?

    T8s isn't in the top 15% of hands...but it's in the top 25% of hands which means I'd be playing it here.
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  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 613 ✭✭✭
    GameKat, yes I do see the difference between the whammy bar and the hand selection for blind defense, pretty neat. The blind defense range is at 19.31%, the blind 3-bet range is 4.98%, making the playing range 24.3% (although its hard to say where T8s is, it is probably still close to the bottom of this range.)

    And I agree that against one player in the big blind, calling T8s is fine, as it has about 40% equity against a standard open raise range. (and against one opponent, hitting our small flush is a huge hand)

    And I understand the deep stacks is another factor in favor of calling in this spot against 3 players. We also showed that with shallow stacks against standard opening ranges, calling "all in" with 10BB would be +EV.

    What about with 50BB or 100BB. Do we still make this call in this position?

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,326 -
    At some level it's a question of playability combined with getting decent immediate odds and closing the action. There are going to be a lot of flops that give us the green light to fight for the pot. We are good at poker and will win a lot of those fights. A fair fraction of the time we'll do that without having the best hand.

    As to the specific stack depth we need, that'd likely require an analysis similar to the one in Doug's T8s video, but 100BB should be plenty.
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