Overpair on flop, got check-raised

ScottValScottVal Red Chipper Posts: 108
edited December 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Hello-
I played this hand in a live 1/3 NL game the other day. Midwestern USA small town casino.

I had raised to $15 and got three callers. I was in position. My hand was :Th :Td . I had about $280 behind at that point. The dealer gave us :3s :5s :7h . My opponents checked to me and I bet $30. One villain folded and the other raised to $100. He had me covered.

The villain had about $1000 in chips (he had won a couple of large pots). He was somewhat aggressive, but not overly so. I had my usual tight image, but I had been raising somewhat often during the first round of betting, per Ed M's recommendation in his book "The Course."

So I'm wondering what I should have done here. Ed talks about the folding skill in his book, and I think it may have applied here, because $100 was a big bet. It was more than three times my bet. He made this bet into a $75 pot. One-hundred dollar bets in my game are big bets.

On the other hand it was just the flop, and it would have cost me $70 to call his bet, then the pot would have been $245 with $180 behind. Maybe he had pocket eights or a flush draw. So maybe I should have called and re-evaluated on the turn.

I'd rather not say what I did (at this point), to foster objective discussion.
-Scott

Comments

  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 238 ✭✭
    Yeah this is a tough spot. Do you feel like overpairs are a favorite v. this opponent if stacks go in? If so, call and be prepared to play for stacks unless the board gets nasty.

    To me it feels like he flopped a set or flush draw. So he could have your crushed already or have 15+ outs with suited broadway flush draws. If he likes 88 and 99 so much, why didn't he re-raise pre-flop? I think I fold here.

    Also, if as is the case in this example, you're playing in a loose passive game where you go multiway a lot, you need to adjust your pf raise size-- either 1) higher to get make value from drawing hands and make your stack commitment decision easier post-flop or 2) lower, something in the neighborhood of 3x in order to go to the flop with as a high an SPR as possible. There's a reason the best players in the world open to 3x as a default.
  • ScottValScottVal Red Chipper Posts: 108
    Thanks for the reply, I should have mentioned that there were two limpers ahead of me ($3 a piece) and I raised to $15 (the limpers then called). This is a normal raise size I use in this game against one or two limpers. If I am opening, I raise to $10, which is pretty close to the 3x raise size you speak of.

    In the actual hand, I did fold after the raise to $100.

    Yea, it is possible he had a set, two pair or even a straight. He also may have had a flush draw, and if he had over-cards to my tens in the hole, he was actually a favorite to win by the river. He also may have had some weird pair-and-gutshot combo like 76 or even just top pair like A7.

    On the other hand, I don't think it would have been a huge mistake to call the raise, and then fold on most turns if he made a big bet.
    -Scott V.
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    I would expect passive fishy players (who limp-call preflop and then check-raise the flop) to turn up here with mostly made hands. I doubt he is capable of the check-raise semi bluff with a flush draw. Over pairs to your 10s look unlikely here based on preflop play. So can potentially restrict the range to two pair, straight, set ... You're a dog to that entire range so it looks an easy fold (You're also a dog to any flush draw just in case he turns up with that).

    This is unless you think he's overvaluing pocket 8s, pocket 9s or TPTK ... But villain seems pretty transparent so easy fold.
  • mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    I'm not a big fan of this raise. It needs to be bigger. Your raise size invites a lot of Ax hands, suited Kx hands, middle to small pocket pairs, and suited connectors will probably, and off suit big cards find a call for 15. Plus you only have pocket tens, a good hand to be sure but its not KK or AA. Your raise is small enough to get a lot of look you up calls.

    In order to weed out the Ax, small pocket pairs, and some of the suited hands you should be raising it up to about $25. A larger raise forces your opponents to tighten up their calling range. Suited Ax hands are calling, some middle and small pairs are calling, but you are getting a lot of folds out of suited connectors that are below a ten.

    The bigger raise forces your opponents to define at least to themselves how valuable their hand is. Even limpers playing too many hands will like fewer hands if they have to put in an extra $22. This all helps your flop situation. When you bet and get check raised its more meaningful.

    I also think your flop bet wasn't strong enough. 30 is about half the pot and is weakish since you were the pre-flop raiser. I think $45 is probably a better bet IMO. I think your actions were correct but your bet sizing was off.
  • ScottValScottVal Red Chipper Posts: 108
    I dunno, I'm a fan of the 3xBB + BB * #limpers formula for my raises. I'll usually round them to a red chip just to make it easier. So, against two limpers in a 1-3 game, the formula says 15, so I raise to 15. Against one limper I'll normally round it up to 15.

    I don't really like changing my raise sizes based on my hand. I've seen so many people make large raises with pocket jacks or pocket tens and then show them and say "I didn't want any action, that's why I raised so much. I was glad just to take down the blinds and limps." I just don't like to play that way.

    As for my bet size on second street, there was $49 in the pot and I bet 30. So it's over half, and more so if you take into account the fact that some money get raked out of the pot. But yea, I've been known for making full pot-sized bets or almost post-sized bets, and maybe that makes sense. The pot-sized bet idea seems kind of old-school, like something from Doyle B. or Sam O'Connor. Lately I've been shading my bets a bit smaller, like around 60% pot. I think the important thing is to make your bet bigger than the initial raise, to create the impression that there is the threat of escalating bets on the turn and river. In a heads-up situation maybe I raise to 15, and then bet 25 on the flop to create that escalation impression, i.e. a bet with some teeth in it. Multi-way the bet was 30, not much more than half-pot. But that's just me and I appreciate the discussion and food for thought.
  • mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    Am I missing something? You raise to 15 and get 3 callers for 15. Even if two of the callers were from the blinds that's 15 x 4 so that should be 60. Thus 30 is only a half pot bet. I am not advocating picking raises based on the hand strength. I would make it 25 with AA, AK, pocket 4s and even some stone cold bluffs. I make this kind of raise frequently from position and it makes it through a lot.

    I like to go against the grain when it comes to betting and raising at the table. After I sit at a table and determine what the "normal" raise is I increase it just a bit to keep the limpers uncomfortable. Plus it has the benefit of making their calls and especially their re-raises munch more face up. When I get played back at the most of the time is AA or KK and I can fold with no problem.

    I guess we have different philosophies on this part of the game. I try to play a tight game as well but when I am in position and there are limpers ahead of me I try and put as much pressure on them as possible no matter what I have. It also means that I make bigger flop bets as well. Again though, when I get played back at its an easy fold more times than not. At the 1-2 or 1-3 level its pretty easy to get them to play their hands "face up" with the bigger bet sizing. Most are scared to get our of their comfort zone and when you force them to most of the time they just fold but when they play back at you its the nuts. I still think folding to the check raise was the correct play but I think you would have felt better about it if your bet sizes had been bigger pre-flop and on the flop. Good luck at the table.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You guys can argue until the cows come home about sizing nuances but at all that really matters is that when you bet into a multiway field without range advantage or clear equity advantage, bad things should happen to you, and here they did.

    This flop is generally a check without a range that intends to bet/3bet. You can b/f against particular opponents or sequences of actions but there is no conclusive read on each villain to account for this approach.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's nothing inherently wrong with the preflop raise size. On the flop, what you're looking to do in this situation is hammer someone who overvalues one pair or flush draw/straight draw type hands in large pots. You'd need to already know they do this to get involved with them, not start guessing in the middle of this hand. Otherwise you're looking to take down a smaller pot against fewer opponents, or if you don't feel comfortable, just get to showdown relatively cheaply against 3 opponents.

    I don't think I agree with you that you can put in $100 on the flop and reevaluate. You've put in nearly half your stack at that point so you're past the commitment threshold. If you're willing to stack off on the turn if a "safe card" comes (god only knows what that would be or how you would know), then you should just shove right now IMO. Because that would mean you think you're ahead right now, and if you're ahead there's no reason you should fold and no reason you shouldn't punish your opponent. Yes, you can always be up against the ol' :2s :6s , but that's a pretty tiny percentage of the range you're ahead of right now. And even then it's a borderline shove anyway.

    Regarding a "safe" turn card, what are you looking for? I count over half the deck that would leave me even more uncomfortable than I am now.
  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 238 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote:
    You guys can argue until the cows come home about sizing nuances but at all that really matters is that when you bet into a multiway field without range advantage or clear equity advantage, bad things should happen to you, and here they did.

    This flop is generally a check without a range that intends to bet/3bet. You can b/f against particular opponents or sequences of actions but there is no conclusive read on each villain to account for this approach.

    He has to bet on the flop or essentially check/give up. A lot of turn cards are horrible for his hand and good for his opponents' ranges.
  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 238 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote:

    I don't think I agree with you that you can put in $100 on the flop and reevaluate. You've put in nearly half your stack at that point so you're past the commitment threshold. If you're willing to stack off on the turn if a "safe card" comes (god only knows what that would be or how you would know), then you should just shove right now IMO. Because that would mean you think you're ahead right now, and if you're ahead there's no reason you should fold and no reason you shouldn't punish your opponent. Yes, you can always be up against the ol' :2s :6s , but that's a pretty tiny percentage of the range you're ahead of right now. And even then it's a borderline shove anyway.

    This.

    Flop spot is a good situation to bet fold imo.

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