Top pair and flush draw

jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
edited December 2015 in Live Poker Hands
2/5 at casino. Playing Ed Miller range. I have $500, villain has me covered.

Limp, raise to $15, call, I call on button with :Qs :5s (ok maybe not the best Ed Miller range), but I like position. blinds fold, limper calls.

Flop :Qh :3s :7s

Original raiser bets, $30, fold, I raise $55, fold, Original raiser hems haws - But (IMO) its more weak hem haws than Hollywood.

Villain, re-raises $100 on top.

Now what?

Comments

  • jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    FYI, I'm pretty new to the table and haven't had the chance to profile the villain
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is like the 96s hand all over again.

    You made a loose call, then blew up this pot on the flop with for some unknown reason; now you get to rip it in and hope for the best. Make sure you slam your cards down and show everyone that you are a gambler, no matter what happens.

    I'll give you one thing, though: the "Ed Miller Calling Range" is a helluva lot less clear than the opening one, which apparently everyone and his brother knows.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    If you're gonna play Q5sooted with 100BB, and flop TP+FD, there's no folding. It's in the top 10% of flops you could hope for.

    Agreed, rip it in and live with the results. Adjustment for later in the session - once everyone sees how you played this hand, make sure to play bottom set the exact same way.
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    This is exactly why we shouldn't play Q5s. Within reason (so discounting the 1/118 chance to flop a flush), this is pretty much the best case scenario with this hand - yet if all the all money goes in on the flop we're probably behind or up against the nut flush draw.

    Not sure why the raise on the flop is a min raise and what the intention of that was.

    As played ... Yeah I guess just shove and gamble.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jimmy3150 wrote: »
    Not sure why the raise on the flop is a min raise and what the intention of that was.

    Not sure it was a min-raise. In general, the intention of the min-raise here (if I can pretend to get in their heads for a second) is to play for a free card like it's a limit game.

    If you take the OP's text literally, villain bets $30, hero made it $85 to go, and then villain made it $185 to go. Min-raise by hero would be $60 to go, and min-raise by villain over hero's $85 would be $140 to go.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Against certain players I would call with any 2 cards on the button, but those players would have to have certain characteristics (I do love those players though, even though they're not so common in $1/3). In a 3-way raised pot (which might be 4- or 5-way), that goes out the window and this is a junky call preflop.

    You hit the flop about as hard as you could really wish for, and you're still a dog to any 1 pair hand that villain is likely to have. Yeah yeah I know.... you have "the world". But the flop is just not as good as it looks. You might think you're getting 2:1 here, but really you have to consider how the money really went in. Effectively, you're giving yourself closer to 1:1 than 2:1 by how the hand goes down if you get your money in here.

    So if this is the situation you've gotten yourself in and this is how the hand is going to go down, then just fold preflop.

    As played, you're getting reasonable odds on the flop. Call and reevaluate on the turn.
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    Ah ok, that's clear thanks Jeff
  • jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    @persuadeo "This is like the 96s hand all over again." - I don't recall a 96s hand. Looked through the archives and couldn't find one I posted about 96s

    Regarding my Flop raise. My thoughts were, it was a flush draw board. The pre-flop raiser bet $30 into $60 pot. Seemed weak to me. Figured he'd bet 50ish with a strong hand vs 3 villains - Everyone is afraid of flush draws. I raised him there because I didn't think he'd like the pressure.

    I shoved (of course) - no way I'm folding, so I'm going with it. Even if he's got AA, KK, AQ - I've got tons of outs. (QQ unlikely, less outs, but still some)

    Villain folded to the shove - Quickly I might add.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's no two pair combos, and you don't have top set, so to a sharp player your raise will always look like a draw here, so bloating the pot on the flop is not going to be the ideal play. Following through with the shove, however, once you do make the thin raise, is best, so good job. Strange of him to fold, but not everyone can play their draws this hard and he was convinced you had the set in the end.

    I didn't say you posted the 96s hand.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2015
    I agree that the most likely explanation is that villain was convinced you had a set, and frankly I don't think it's common for a villain to fold here. I think villain might have done one of those "raise to find out where I'm at, and I found out" kind of plays. Normally, when a villain 3-bets here, it's because he's putting you on a flush draw or a Q he can beat, and he's not going to be folding.

    However as played, you're saying you raised because you didn't think he'd like the pressure. Of course this can only mean you thought he had a good chance of folding. It can't mean that you thought he'd be uncomfortable but he'd call anyway, because that does you no good!

    So anyway my point relates to this question. Where do you think your equity was in this hand - primarily fold equity, or primarily implied odds? If you think your opponent is going to be folding, then it can't be implied odds, and vice versa. And that all relates to the types of hands you should be playing preflop.
  • jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    Hi jeffnc
    I like your question regarding fold equity vs implied odds.

    In truth, I didn't think ahead like that. I'm a recreational player, and basically I figured I'm not folding, I flopped huge (by my standards), I've got top pair and a flush draw and "I'm going with it"

    I know i don't have implied odds to call, and I'm gonna look really draw heavy if I call, so I guess I'm relying on fold equity plus outs if called.

    Basically, he felt weak to me, I'm gonna ship it, gamble, and see the river. Agreed it ain't the best poker, but I didn't drive to the casino to fold :)
  • jbruelsjbruels Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    I talked with Ed a while ago about a hand just like this (TP+FD). His advice was that when playing a deepish stack this is precisely the kind of hand that many players try to get it all in on the flop. He feels it’s exactly the wrong kind of hand to get it all in on the flop. Top pair with a flush draw is a good hand, it’s a flexible, two-way hand. But, if you get action for 100 bb’s on the flop with top pair no kicker, it’s not good. Likewise, if villain has pocket 10’s getting him to fold to your raise doesn’t do you any good either. Much better just to call and keep it ambiguous. You really want to see the turn with this hand. If you miss your draw, you have position and you can see what villain wants to do. Obviously, if you make your hand the way forward is pretty clear as well. You have effectively lopped off the top pair value of this hand by escalating the betting.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This is like the 96s hand all over again.

    You made a loose call, then blew up this pot on the flop with for some unknown reason; now you get to rip it in and hope for the best. Make sure you slam your cards down and show everyone that you are a gambler, no matter what happens.

    I'll give you one thing, though: the "Ed Miller Calling Range" is a helluva lot less clear than the opening one, which apparently everyone and his brother knows.

    This!!! Lol

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