Stealing OoP with AK and deciding the best line on the flop

El Taco GringoEl Taco Gringo Red Chipper Posts: 27
edited December 2015 in Online Poker Hands
Hi.
I was reviewing my HH and I came across this spot:

$0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BB: 104 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 18)
UTG: 50 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
MP: 39.5 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
CO: 92.5 BB (VPIP: 23.53, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
BTN: 164.5 BB (VPIP: 25.93, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 55)
Hero (SB): 100.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :Ah:Ks
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3.5 BB, BB calls 2.5 BB

Flop : (7 BB, 2 players) :5c:Jd:9h
Cbet? delay cbet? Check-raise flop?

In this flop if I dont hit I'm giving up most the time, simply because I can be outplayed so easlily in this spot. Should I check-fold with AK on this flop? Or come up with some creative line like check-raise the flop, check-call the flop and donk /check-raise the turn?

I'm considering these lines because:
1- in this case, AK is really at the top of my perceived range here
2-villain can float me a lot here with pocket pairs, second pairs and some draws ( alot of hands that are not Jx, which, if we analyse, there aren't too many compared to the range he can have here) that fold to turn aggression a lot of the times
3-he sees this coming and will not give me credit, which is good when I hit my hand, but not so good the other times I don't
4- I have outs to improve on turn and river in case the play goes to these streets,
5- he will have from time to time complete air with the intention of stealing the pot on the turn if I check ( Ax, which I have crush and, in case I hit my Ace, I can extract value from his weaker Ax, and ocasionaly KQ and KT if a K comes and he defends with those.)

Is AK too strong to fold here or would you take a more tight and passive line?

Comments

  • JfdiwinsJfdiwins Red Chipper Posts: 52
    A line to consider with over cards that have missed is check call the flop bet and check fold the turn unless your hand improves.

    My line would vary dependant on the information I have on the villain but as you have very little it is difficult to say. The problem becomes we are inflating the pot out of position. I would not fold AK on the flop here, I would always call one bet as long as it is not a very large bet.
    I like to have more information about a villain before I consider using a check raise (flop or turn) or check call flop- donk turn line as a bluff.
  • Marc-KevinMarc-Kevin Red Chipper Posts: 27
    lets use this PF calling range for example...
    23750594011_437bc196f1_m.jpgBB

    If he`s calling you're Cbet wide with Open enders and middle pairs +, he's still only going to call it 42% of the time... If he's more straight foward and only calls with TP+ that % goes down to 21%...

    IMO there are enough Ax and Kx hands that you beat in his range to justify a Cbet...
  • RamblinonRamblinon Red Chipper Posts: 26
    Jfdiwins wrote: »
    A line to consider with over cards that have missed is check call the flop bet and check fold the turn unless your hand improves.

    +1

    I think it's good to consider different lines but I don't think too many "bluff" lines need to be implemented at $4NL. If the people we are trying to bluff don't know they are supposed to fold we are just giving our money away (don't ask me how I know that.) Very few players at this level are considering anything more than their hand. Value betting lines are much more profitable at these stakes because they will call you with the worst of it when you have the best of it.

    Now, I do take hands like this and look at different lines vs some tougher regs that I may see when I move up to the next level. My decisions will be easier when those situations arise because I've done my homework.



  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Questions like this makes me want to digest your game further to give you a better answer but what i will tell you is this. Consider what you do with your strong hands, weak hands and air and start balancing out how you want to bluff and value bet. Your question is a piece of the puzzle to a bigger picture that you will eventually find yourself travelling towards to as you think about situations like this. If you do then consider going pro at Red Chip Poker and find Doug Hall Range Construction video, its literally the nuts for you i promise.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Marc-KevinMarc-Kevin Red Chipper Posts: 27
    Rello242 wrote: »
    Questions like this makes me want to digest your game further to give you a better answer but what i will tell you is this. Consider what you do with your strong hands, weak hands and air and start balancing out how you want to bluff and value bet. Your question is a piece of the puzzle to a bigger picture that you will eventually find yourself travelling towards to as you think about situations like this. If you do then consider going pro at Red Chip Poker and find Doug Hall Range Construction video, its literally the nuts for you i promise.
    That's a great series, I just finished the 2nd episode. I started doing the work on excel following his framework although I'm trying to come up with value:bluff ratios that applies to my stakes as I'm pretty sure using the ones in the video are not value oriented enough to be effective at 5NL fast...
    I'm also trying to use this framework and adapt it to tournament play...
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Marc-Kevin wrote: »
    That's a great series, I just finished the 2nd episode. I started doing the work on excel following his framework although I'm trying to come up with value:bluff ratios that applies to my stakes as I'm pretty sure using the ones in the video are not value oriented enough to be effective at 5NL fast...
    I'm also trying to use this framework and adapt it to tournament play...

    It actually is, tbh i could probably run on about how, and plus i sure one of the pros could better direct you than i can but if you are determine to find out how and why then PM me, but trust me it is effective. I think when you think about games like 100NL you see where this is way more effective and but that won't mean it won't be effective at 5NL or barely effective that its a waste of time. Its very well useful and im sure if you apply it you will see what i mean from your results. :)
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com

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