Sidepot decision line check

persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
2/5

V1 just got crushed and has $35 while he decides to buy in again or not.
V2 has $700 is action and I cover him.

V1 UTG limps.
HERO UTG2 raises 99 to $35.
V2 BU calls.

Main pot 100. Flop Qc9d2d.

Action on Hero. Bet or x/r? This board is often a x/r spot for me but am I right that with a sidepot villain might be inclined to check behind even his draws? More importantly, does that matter?

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,941 -
    Yeah, I think he checks the flop behind a lot since V1 calls his bet a lot and he doesn't want to have to show AT.

    Any thoughts to overbetting the flop to look airy and induce really sticky calls the times V2 continues?
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    By checking, the villain can see a free card, and will elect to do so, because even if he has the ultimate draw hand :Jd :Td he will often check back. there can be a lot of cards that hit the turn that shut down the action even more, especially if he doesnt have a draw but something like middle pair. This is a good spot to start getting value out of your hand. The overbet is always a creative option. Another fun one that gets a lot of calls is to make the same $35 bet on this flop, as it feels fishy, like you might just be protecting a big ace.

    So you check, and there are basically now two types of turns. a brick or a wet card. If a wet card hits and he shows aggression, this puts you in a awkward spot, as he would not typically show aggression unless he knew he was a lock on the side pot. If a brick hits, hes in the same situation he was on the flop. By betting the flop, you effectively just get one more betting round in when he is behind


    IMO any flop bet will likely yield a higher +EV than a check. In what ways would checking be better than leading out?
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Also, he may bet the flop with KQ type hand, but once you check raise, he is likely going away. if you lead out, he will call with these hands, and you can extract more value on the turn
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Because it's a board the button flatter should be inclined to bet if checked to as Q9x hits a calling range as hard as it does a raising range.
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    but won't a check raise usually just take him off the hand, even if he has his upper range with something like KQ? You check, he bets, you reraise, you reveal that you are super strong
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not really. I check raise all my draws and weak queens. The point about this post is, how does the sidepot influence the hand?
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Not really. I check raise all my draws and weak queens. The point about this post is, how does the sidepot influence the hand?

    When you say this, do you mean in this particular instance or in all instances when heads up OOP?

    With the side pot, this of course a unique scenario. Check raising without this other guy tying up 115 is different, as there is much more fold equity when you make the play. He bets and you check raise, it looks even stronger than usual because he assumes you are doing it with a made hand, since there will automatically be a showdown. The fold equity should not include the side pot as there will still be a showdown
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 563 ✭✭✭
    Since you described him as "action" im assuming hes neither a thinking player nor aggro, and therefore he makes calling mistakes. Given these assumptions plus lack of stack depth I like a bet out in this spot.

    In general, without a side pot, a cr on this board is good, especially to buff out your semibluffs and weak qx.

    Also, taking a line you dont normally take here knowing you are pretty much always going to be showing your hand could be good.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @sparkyaa yes, that would be what I normally do. The sidepot changed what I was doing.

    Essentially I bet because of the sidepot's effect, but it felt like a mistake on that board. Trying to resolve the difference.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 736 ✭✭✭
    Always looking to get his stack. I Iike overbet flop for this here, especially vs action player. It looks fishy. They might haul off and do something crazy. Either that or like $20. That will confuse the hell out of him

    Sidepot situations increase check backs dramatically IMO even for action players . Can't risk that here
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Also, if he is that much of an action player and you bet into him, he might raise you on the flop, which is golden. I also find that when one player is all in, even if it isn't for much, other players are more inclined to say "all in". "All in" has an interesting psychological effect. So if you bet, and he has a big draw, he might just push into you OTF, giving you super +EV.

    I just see his call/raising range to be much broader than his betting range, given the sidepot. As @wiki_leaks stated, "action players" usually aren't known to be truly deep thinkers, so he is probably not thinking about your range as much. He just figures that you probably continuation bet in this scenario a lot. When you lead out, he might not give you credit for much, but when you reraise, he might not know what you have, but it will raise his red flags for sure
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Even if the sidepot didn't matter, there's still an image issue here. There's going to be a showdown, and some people are going to remember how you played this. You almost have to bet here I think. You're going to have a hard time c-betting and making any bluffs if you don't. Anyway I think you have more to gain by betting and hoping he raises than by trying to check/raise. Once you bet, that makes the sidepot no longer dry, with something worth fighting for. Until then, there's little incentive and I don't want to risk a check back. Yes this board "hit" his range, but a lot of that includes draws, and he has less incentive to semi-bluff than usual.

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