Small Blind & Pot Odds

FlushhDrawFlushhDraw Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
edited January 2016 in General Concepts
A mathematical part of Poker that I actually hate is the concept of pot odds almost forcing you to play hands or am I looking at this incorrectly?

Let me ask you something. Whether you're playing five and ten cent blinds online or you're playing $1 and $2 live at the casino we've all faced this and I'd like to know where everybody stands on this.

You get about four 4 limpers into the pot and you're in the small blind so it only cost you a dollar if you're playing live at the casino to call but you're sitting there in that small blind with 29o, or perhaps to 73o, or perhaps something like 38o. Are you forced, and forced being a subjective term of course, to completing the small blind because you're getting 11-1 or if there was only three limpers you're getting 9-1. Worst case scenario AA up against to 72o is no worse than a 5-1 dog so does that mean all things being equal that we are forced mathematically speaking in poker to toss that extra dollar in because if we don't we are making a mistake or do you at times even if you're getting 9 to 1 or 10 to 1 but your hand is just absolute garbage and you know in your own mind and heart you're throwing away that extra dollar or extra $5 if you play 5/10 or whatever the case may be do you just fold it even if u know mathematically speaking it's an error.

Comments

  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    edited January 2016
    A mathematical part of Poker that I actually hate is the concept of pot odds almost forcing you to play hands or am I looking at this incorrectly?

    I feel the exact same way as you. The reason for my point of view is to take a simple scenario. In a $1/$2 game, you raise to $5 and i simply make it $10 every time with only QQ+. I won't go on to rant about why the sizing is bad, etc. but if I could get you every time to put an extra $5 more than you normally would with a bad hand every time just because of pot odds, I'll win in the long run.

    The complicated part of this starts to creep in after we postflop. The people who are on board with making pot odd calls Pre, will indeed point out that there are times your hand turns into a monster and you can proceed to win a big stack. The other problem to this for me, is that for stacks to go in the middle not only do I have to be willing but so is my opponent, so now I have to account for him making mistakes that I can exploit and make money from. Then for me, the topic doesn't become should I call because of pot odds, it becomes should I use pot odds to play a weaker player with a weaker holding.

    Once we get into a multiway situation its almost the same thing but you have to take into account 2 things: 1. Your probably not going to be bluffing alot, so your calling to fold majority of the time and 2. People tend to continue with a much stronger range than they would in a HU situation. So now you have the options of seeing the flop with hopefully more than 1 weaker player which is a bonus but then considering what I mention above, do you really want to be calling to fold majority of the time?

    When I think about pot odds I think about it in a way that it helps the decision process of exploiting a weakness and not make a decision solely based on the pot odds. Another thing I would tell players who verbally speak of pot odds, is to think about how good your hand is in equity and turn those pot odds into percentage, then ask yourself do you have enough equity to go along with such good pot odds? You'll find that despite having awesome pot odds, your 72o is really probably good maybe 15% with pot odds of 5:1 that translate to roughly 17% and your equity still isn't good against the average ranges. This will be realized even more once you go post and equity really declines.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • FlushhDrawFlushhDraw Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    so are you saying that I can let go of these garbage hands without at the same time making a tactical mistake.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    This is how I look at it.

    1) It seems like those odds are if you get to see all 5 cards. How many times are you going to call with 72off and then get blown off your hand? Will you call down three streets on a 289,Q,J board?

    AND

    2) I really tightened up from the SB once I read this idea from Tommy Angelo. Essentially, his view point is that you are paying for the privilege of having the worst position for the rest of the hand. Save your money for the next hand, for which you'll have the best position for the whole hand.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    FlushhDraw wrote: »
    so are you saying that I can let go of these garbage hands without at the same time making a tactical mistake.

    The tactical mistake is to put your chips into battle without a plan if you ask me.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 ✭✭
    I think RIO play a huge part here. Say you have 92o and 11/1 on a call. What board is good for you?

    You pretty much need a minimum of trips to even begin to get paid off and who really calls you off with worse anyway? Huge RIO on a 994 board for example.

    Plus it's much harder to extract value from anyone OOP anyway. No problem folding at all.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    I personally keep it to 1 gappers or less for non-broadways, regardless of the odds, 10-7 would probably be the bottom of my complete range for 2 gappers. not sure if this is good or bad, but usually reason I'm sticking with completing with 1 gappers is because I could hit a strong made hand while someone else could hit a good draw, or vise versa. Once you start getting 2 gappers or more in your completing range, the possible draws and ways to hit your hand drastically look worse and worse. If you hit a straight with a 2 gapper, there is often a better straight available, giving you horrible reverse implied odds. You package this with the board looks very straight-y and being in EP, it's going to be difficult to get paid off when you do hit. Just my 2c


    The other side to this, just throw $25 out there on a 1-2 table when everyone limps to you in the SB with the absolute bottom of your range. Scoop $10, profit. Squeeze the living daylights out of them. You should have a plan going forward when someone calls, but it'll also set you up nicely when you do pick up a premium hand
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    A lot of the decision has to do with stack sizing. With a bunch of limpers and a hand like 92, no one is going to say you made a bad play if you fold. However, if the stacks are deep, you can make a nice profit if the flop hits you super hard. But playing out of position with junk is a surefire way to get you stuck, so make sure you when you flop top pair or even 2 pair with your 92 you are aware of the other players' tendencies and are not overvaluing your weak 2 pair. 92 is an extreme example, being in the bottom 8% of all starting hands. hands like 46 and 107 can complete the limp and connect on a decent amount of boards. Also, if it checks to late a late position bet, you can represent great strength by reraising on any low flop (people assume you have garbarge in the small blind when you limp, so low flop reraises can be very intimidating
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    Play raise fold from the SB things will be a lot easier
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's a lot more complicated than immediate pot odds. There's the disadvantage of being out of position the whole hand, and reverse implied odds related to playing crap hands.

    Ed Miller wrote about this in one of his books. He discussed the fallacy of playing "any two" when getting tremendous preflop odds.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Save it, they are called crap hands for a reason

    Do this 12 times and do one of two things with it:

    1. Have 2 beers of your choice. My current favorite is Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA

    2. Raise a hand you normally would not from the button

    Both ideas from the school of "Live a little, have some fun". :)
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    1. Have 2 beers of your choice. My current favorite is Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA

    DFH is pretty good, but it's got nothing on Mickeys.... except flavor, no headache and .4% ABV...

    Might need to pick this up again, haven't had it in a while. Just been on a HopJuice, Stone and Hop Shock (San Tan, not sure they have distro out of state) rotation for a while now
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    LOL, That brings back memories

    Used to drink a lot of Mickey's as kid when they called the bottle "The Big Mouth" . Back in the day malt liquor was always a quicker way to get there for the dollar.

    Also would shoot 16 oz cans of "The Bull" , Schlitz Malt Liquor. That and lighting shots of Amburs 190 proof vodka on fire and downing them kept it real in the 70's.

    Where have all the good times gone? :)

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