Need some insight on this Range Analysis

Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
Okay so I came across a spot in my analysis that I can't really figure out and I need you guys help with.

What I'll do is post the hand without showing the results nor the hero holding, but instead I will post my opening range and my construction on the flop.

The problem is on the turn. I follow Doug's Construction Range guideline for betting and checking if anybody might be wondering about that.

888 Poker - $4.55+$0.45|20/40 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 935
BB: 2,065 (VPIP: 64.44, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 13.04, Hands: 50)

Hero posts SB 20, BB posts BB 40

Pre Flop: (pot: 60) Hero Opening Range: 1050 Combos (22+, A2s+, A2o+, K2s+, K2o+, Q2s+, Q2o+, J2s+, J3o+, T2s+, T5o+, 92s+, 95o+, 82s+, 85o+, 73s+, 75o+, 62s+, 65o, 52s+, 43s)

Hero raises to 80, BB calls 40

Flop: (160, 2 players) :4s :Js :8d
BB checks, Hero bets 80, BB calls 80

[FLOP]

Entire Range: 936 Combos

BET: 655 Combos
CHECK: 281 Combos

Betting Range: 652 Combos

VALUE: 216 Combos
BLUFF: 439 Combos

Value Range: 213 Combos (QQ+, JdJc, JhJc, JhJd, TT-99, 8h8c, 4d4c, 4h4c, 4h4d, AhJh, AcJc, Ah8h, Ac8c, As8s, AhJc, AhJd, AcJh, AcJd, AdJh, AdJc, Ah8c, Ah8s, Ac8h, Ac8s, Ad8h, Ad8c, Ad8s, As8h, As8c, KhJh, KcJc, Kh8h, Kc8c, Ks8s, KhJc, KhJd, KcJh, KcJd, KdJh, KdJc, Kh8c, Kh8s, Kc8h, Kc8s, Kd8h, Kd8c, Kd8s, Ks8h, Ks8c, QhJh, QcJc, Qh8h, Qc8c, Qs8s, QhJc, QhJd, QcJh, QcJd, QdJh, QdJc, Qh8c, Qh8s, Qc8h, Qc8s, Qd8h, Qd8c, Qd8s, Qs8h, Qs8c, JhTh, JcTc, Jh9h, Jc9c, Jh7h, Jc7c, Jh6h, Jc6c, Jh5h, Jc5c, Jh3h, Jc3c, Jh2h, Jc2c, JhTc, JhTd, JcTh, JcTd, JdTh, JdTc, Jh9c, Jh9d, Jc9h, Jc9d, Jd9h, Jd9c, Jh7c, Jh7d, Jc7h, Jc7d, Jd7h, Jd7c, Jh6c, Jh6d, Jc6h, Jc6d, Jd6h, Jd6c, Jh5c, Jh5d, Jc5h, Jc5d, Jd5h, Jd5c, Jh3c, Jh3d, Jc3h, Jc3d, Jd3h, Jd3c, Th8h, Tc8c, Ts8s, Th8c, Th8s, Tc8h, Tc8s, Td8h, Td8c, Td8s, Ts8h, Ts8c, 9h8h, 9c8c, 9s8s, 9h8c, 9h8s, 9c8h, 9c8s, 9d8h, 9d8c, 9d8s, 9s8h, 9s8c, 8h7h, 8c7c, 8s7s, 8h6h, 8c6c, 8s6s, 8h5h, 8c5c, 8s5s, 8h3h, 8c3c, 8s3s, 8h2h, 8c2c, 8s2s, 8h7c, 8h7d, 8h7s, 8c7h, 8c7d, 8c7s, 8s7h, 8s7c, 8s7d, 8h6c, 8h6d, 8h6s, 8c6h, 8c6d, 8c6s, 8s6h, 8s6c, 8s6d, 8h5c, 8h5d, 8h5s, 8c5h, 8c5d, 8c5s, 8s5h, 8s5c, 8s5d)

Bluffing Range: 439 Combos (AhKh, AcKc, AdKd, AhQh, AcQc, AdQd, AhTh, AcTc, AdTd, Ah9h, Ac9c, Ad9d, Ah7h, Ac7c, Ad7d, Ah6h, Ac6c, Ad6d, Ah5h, Ac5c, Ad5d, Ad3d, Ad2d, AQo+, ATo-A9o, A7o-A5o, Ah3s, Ac3s, Ad3s, As3h, As3c, As3d, Ah2s, Ac2s, Ad2s, As2h, As2c, As2d, KhQh, KcQc, KdQd, KhTh, KcTc, KdTd, Kh9h, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh7h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh6h, Kc6c, Kd6d, Kh5h, Kc5c, Kd5d, Kd3d, Kd2d, KQo, KTo-K9o, K7o-K5o, Kh3s, Kc3s, Kd3s, Ks3h, Ks3c, Ks3d, Kh2s, Kc2s, Kd2s, Ks2h, Ks2c, Ks2d, QhTh, QcTc, QdTd, Qh9h, Qc9c, Qd9d, Qh7h, Qc7c, Qd7d, Qh6h, Qc6c, Qd6d, Qd5d, Qd3d, Qd2d, QTo-Q9o, Q7o-Q6o, Qh5s, Qc5s, Qd5s, Qs5h, Qs5c, Qs5d, Qh3s, Qc3s, Qd3s, Qs3h, Qs3c, Qs3d, Qh2s, Qc2s, Qd2s, Qs2h, Qs2c, Qs2d, Td9d, Th7h, Tc7c, Td7d, Th6h, Tc6c, Td6d, Td5d, Td3d, Td2d, Th9s, Tc9s, Td9s, Ts9h, Ts9c, Ts9d, T7o-T6o, Th5s, Tc5s, Td5s, Ts5h, Ts5c, Ts5d, 9h7h, 9c7c, 9d7d, 9h6h, 9c6c, 9d6d, 9d5d, 9d3d, 9d2d, 97o-96o, 9h5s, 9c5s, 9d5s, 9s5h, 9s5c, 9s5d, 7h6h, 7c6c, 7d6d, 7h5h, 7c5c, 7d5d, 7d3d, 75o+, 6h5h, 6c5c, 6d5d, 6d3d, 6d2d, 65o, 5d3d, 5d2d)

Checking Range: 281 Combos (8s8c, 8s8h, 77-55, 33-22, AdJd, Ah5h, Ac5c, As5s, Ah4h, Ac4c, Ad4d, Ah3h, Ac3c, As3s, Ah2h, Ac2c, As2s, AsJh, AsJc, AsJd, Ah5c, Ah5d, Ac5h, Ac5d, Ad5h, Ad5c, Ah4c, Ah4d, Ac4h, Ac4d, Ad4h, Ad4c, As4h, As4c, As4d, Ah3c, Ah3d, Ac3h, Ac3d, Ad3h, Ad3c, Ah2c, Ah2d, Ac2h, Ac2d, Ad2h, Ad2c, KdJd, Kh5h, Kc5c, Ks5s, Kh4h, Kc4c, Kd4d, Kh3h, Kc3c, Ks3s, Kh2h, Kc2c, Ks2s, KsJh, KsJc, KsJd, Kh5c, Kh5d, Kc5h, Kc5d, Kd5h, Kd5c, Kh4c, Kh4d, Kc4h, Kc4d, Kd4h, Kd4c, Ks4h, Ks4c, Ks4d, Kh3c, Kh3d, Kc3h, Kc3d, Kd3h, Kd3c, Kh2c, Kh2d, Kc2h, Kc2d, Kd2h, Kd2c, QdJd, Qh5h, Qc5c, Qs5s, Qh4h, Qc4c, Qd4d, Qh3h, Qc3c, Qs3s, Qh2h, Qc2c, Qs2s, QsJh, QsJc, QsJd, Qh5c, Qh5d, Qc5h, Qc5d, Qd5h, Qd5c, Qh4c, Qh4d, Qc4h, Qc4d, Qd4h, Qd4c, Qs4h, Qs4c, Qs4d, Qh3c, Qh3d, Qc3h, Qc3d, Qd3h, Qd3c, Qh2c, Qh2d, Qc2h, Qc2d, Qd2h, Qd2c, JdTd, Jd9d, Jh8h, Jc8c, Jd7d, Jd6d, Jd5d, Jh4h, Jc4c, Jd4d, Jd3d, Jd2d, JhTs, JcTs, JdTs, Jh9s, Jc9s, Jd9s, Jh8c, Jh8s, Jc8h, Jc8s, Jd8h, Jd8c, Jd8s, Jh7s, Jc7s, Jd7s, Jh6s, Jc6s, Jd6s, Jh5s, Jc5s, Jd5s, Jh4c, Jh4d, Jc4h, Jc4d, Jd4h, Jd4c, Jh3s, Jc3s, Jd3s, Th9h, Tc9c, Ts9s, Th4h, Tc4c, Td4d, Th3h, Tc3c, Ts3s, Th2h, Tc2c, Ts2s, Th9c, Th9d, Tc9h, Tc9d, Td9h, Td9c, 9h4h, 9c4c, 9d4d, 9h3h, 9c3c, 9s3s, 9h2h, 9c2c, 9s2s, 8h4h, 8c4c, 7h6h, 7c6c, 7s6s, 7h5h, 7c5c, 7s5s, 7h4h, 7c4c, 7d4d, 7h3h, 7c3c, 7s3s, 7h6c, 7h6d, 7c6h, 7c6d, 7d6h, 7d6c, 7h5c, 7h5d, 7c5h, 7c5d, 7d5h, 7d5c, 6h5h, 6c5c, 6s5s, 6h4h, 6c4c, 6d4d, 6h3h, 6c3c, 6s3s, 6h2h, 6c2c, 6s2s, 6h5c, 6h5d, 6c5h, 6c5d, 6d5h, 6d5c, 5h4h, 5c4c, 5d4d, 5h3h, 5c3c, 5s3s, 5h2h, 5c2c, 5s2s, 4h3h, 4c3c, 4d3d)

Turn: (320, 2 players) :8c

GUIDELINE:

Entire Range: 617 Combos

BET: 432 Combos
CHECK: 185 Combos

Betting Range:

VALUE: 216 Combos
BLUFF: 216 Combos

So my thing is here is that when the board pairs like this, this kill some of my value combos and I don't really pick up extra combos. So I noticing more than enough, my betting range will decrease dramatically, where I won't be able to have 216 combos. Automatically I would balance out my bluff combos to match the decreased # of value combos since I wouldn't want to have more bluffs here. Usually this itself isn't a bad idea but there are some other questions that arise with my checking range:

1. My checking range just increased alot
2. This larger checking range always have no strong hands or even marginal hands in the mix.

So the question is:

Do you decrease your bet % and try to protect your checking range by allowing some stronger to go into the mix?
Or is this a good spot to check back your entire range?

How would your range construction change if you were OOP?
-Rello

"Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com

Best Answer

Answers

  • DeleuzerDeleuzer Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I'm not sure this is correct, but it seems to me that the stronger part of your bluffing range on the flop has become what you might call value bets on the turn. What I'm seeing is you lost 35 8x combos from the turn 8c. I assume these are the value hands you're losing with the paired board. However, this 8 does the same thing to your opponent, who likely has fewer 8s in his/her range than you do.

    From my perspective, AK and AQ could be considered value hands in this spot. Adding those hands into your value bets, you are only losing about 11 hands off your value range, not that big of a deal. Since this card isn't likely to have improved your opponent's hand, I suspect you're allowed to bluff with a slightly higher than 1 to 1 frequency on such a card.

    My argument might be flawed here, since I don't actually see any AKo or AQo hands in the ranges you listed, so I can't tell where you're putting those hands in the range you're constructing. Nevertheless, in a heads up situation, I don't think you'd be too far off considering those as value bets on the turn. Especially when you're entering pots with 80% of your combos, you will by necessity have some rather weak hands that you might consider value bets. Why not AK and AQ?

    The one thing you don't want to do is reduce your betting frequency on this card. It is not a scary card in the least because it reduces the relative strength of your opponents holdings. Given this, it's going to be much harder for him or her to call your turn bet at an adequate frequency. Assuming a polarized pre-flop 3-betting range for this opponent, it looks to me that only about 25% of the range really wants to call a turn bet. 32% if you include flush draws.

    I'm not a master at range construction, but I think my analysis is pretty close to correct. You should be fine in this spot bluffing 55% and value betting 45% as well as putting AK and AQ in your value betting range. Given the drawiness of the board, you can expect him to call with worse than those hands a decent amount of the time, especially if he's trying to hit the 70% defend mark. If he isn't the sort to call with worse, then you should probably up your bluffing frequency, since he'll have to fold nearly 75% of the time.

    Anyway, that's my perspective on this, but I'd certainly like to hear from more skilled analysts.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Thanks for the input, the AK and AQ are in my bluffing range on the flop if you want to double check.

    I was aware of the fact that the 8x do remove value hands from both of our range and i thought about everything you did as well but i also had other solution like and i really want to see what everybody input is in spots like this cause its really an interesting spot.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Look after the suited combos... My entire AQo & AKo are there with no card removal so it is hiding after the suited combination as AQo+
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 595 ✭✭
    So the other half of my comment just disappeared... Not cool


    But i was saying i recently just started bet sizing larger on different streets because of the way the ratio set up so the good thing is my villains would already be custom to me bombing rivers which helps the argument for checking. I wanted to study certain spots to add overbetting in my game once i figured out how my range would look in some spots, and villain range once i have those reads, etc. and i think you just sparked a great idea for creating overbetting spots
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com

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