Soto v. Miller Throwdown

DeleuzerDeleuzer Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
I'm really interested in the almost opposite perspectives given by Ed in The Information Game and Soto in Preflop Raise Sizing.

One interesting thing about the differences in these videos is that they are strikingly similar in one specific way. The goal of both is to play with better information. When Soto talks about the pain threshold, he's basically saying, force people to give you more information from the very beginning of the hand. By raising to 8x or 14x pre-flop, you're basically saying to your opponents that they can either a) call a giant bet with mediocre hands, or b) they can wait for the platinum triangle of KK+,AK. Soto seems to be saying, "Adjust or turn your cards face up."

Ed on the other hand, seems to be saying that we have the opportunity to gain information by easing our way into a hand. "Sit back," he seems to say, "and gather the most information you can before deciding on the most profitable move." Clearly, following the other work of Ed's, he would not suggest that a passive game is a good game, but the recent video sort of moves toward the idea of more early passivity. So how are we to come to a happy medium between Soto and Miller? Or is there a happy medium?

One perspective I have is that Ed is telling us how to beat bad to moderately skilled players, and Soto is telling us how to beat people trying to beat bad to moderately skilled players. Who should we listen to? How do we navigate these seeming strategic differences? How does Soto gather information after his 14x pre-flop raise gets called? How does Ed gather information with 5 callers because he only raised 4x pre-flop? Which approach leaks more information to other players? Of course, the ultimate question is which approach is more profitable and how do i start playing that way as soon as possible? :-)

Seriously, though, I think this debate between Soto and Miller is extremely provocative and would like to see/hear/watch more of this seeming clash of perspectives.

Comments

  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    I'm not sure they are as mutually exclusive as you make it out to be. Each is going to be used in different circumstances, against different villains, and each has merit. Soto's approach doesn't appear to be a leak-proof approach, but rather aimed to get villains out of their comfort zone and playing deeper or in situations that aren't familiar with so the villain can't go by rote charts.

    Remind me of a poker question that was on twitter, "Do you get more excited when making a big call or running a big bluff?" Jonathan Little replied, depends on the villain.
    William wrote: »
    One perspective I have is that Ed is telling us how to beat bad to moderately skilled players, and Soto is telling us how to beat people trying to beat bad to moderately skilled players. Who should we listen to?
    Sounds like each is prepping you for different of opponents or at the very least opponents playing at different levels

    William wrote: »
    I think this debate between Soto and Miller is extremely provocative
    I don't think provocative is the word you are looking for here. maybe thought provoking? Please don't have a provocative debate
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016
    The difference of their styles is likely also due to the player pools and game selection. Being able to create a good action game in NJ is a great skill to have, while tourists come and dump money into the LV poker economy you can play a more defined game and let the tourists beat themselves. Soto benefits a lot more from having a lag image sitting with (presumably, don't know for sure) more familiar faces at the games he plays. While I'm sure Ed recognizes a good portion of the people he plays with, I'd be surprised if there were not some new faces every few days that keep new money fluctuating in. New players that wont be around in a week, making his image less of a factor.
  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    William wrote: »
    Who should we listen to?

    Check your watch. At quarter to the hour and quarter after switch strategies. Now you got some harrington in there too
  • DeleuzerDeleuzer Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    I don't think provocative is the word you are looking for here. maybe thought provoking? Please don't have a provocative debate

    Actually, yes I did mean provocative. Maybe I'm too British, but this definition of provocative is the one I'm getting at. Notice the part that says, "to ​force you to ​think more ​carefully about something."

    Anyway, my point was that the information game leads to conclusions that are rather different than what I get from Soto's videos, and I'd like too see more discussion between the two coaches and/or people who deploy these different approaches that examines those differences.
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    -ev wrote: »
    The difference of their styles is likely also due to the player pools and game selection. Being able to create a good action game in NJ is a great skill to have, while tourists come and dump money into the LV poker economy you can play a more defined game and let the tourists beat themselves. Soto benefits a lot more from having a lag image sitting with (presumably, don't know for sure) more familiar faces at the games he plays. While I'm sure Ed recognizes a good portion of the people he plays with, I'd be surprised if there were not some new faces every few days that keep new money fluctuating in. New players that wont be around in a week, making his image less of a factor.

    I think -ev did a really good job with the above response highlighting why some of the differences in approach may exist.
  • DeleuzerDeleuzer Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Sure that's as good a reason as any for the existence of different styles, but I'm more interested in the theoretical debate between the styles. Soto doesn't say, "I disagree with Ed in this particular game played in NJ, under this set of circumstances." Instead, he says, "Unfortunately, I disagree with Ed."

    It's not a disagreement about context, it's a philosophical disagreement. For me that's the interesting part. Most of us know that different styles can be successful, but as The Information Game shows us, the spectrum of results can be huge. If I want to crush live 2-5 for $70/h do I do that playing MTO (Miller Theory Optimal) or STO (Soto Theory Optimal)?

    Clearly Miller has given us the framework and systematic approach to actually play a particular way, which is quite clearly articulated and relatively understandable. At the same time, Soto forcefully disagrees with some aspects of that style and offers some significant alternative plays. He does not offer a systematic approach to the game or at least hasn't written a gazillion books about his approach. Nevertheless, he clearly advocates a different philosophy. As I said in the original post, I would really like to hear/see/watch more of the debate between these two perspectives.

    For example, we know Soto employs something different pre-flop with the "pain threshold," and we know he advocates not caring on the river if weaker hands can call, but what other kinds of fundamental differences exist between Soto's style and Miller's? Wouldn't it be cool to have them hash out those differences?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    William wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be cool to have them hash out those differences?
    Soto & Miller on LATB? Complete with commentary?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
  • lemmylemmy Red Chipper Posts: 9
    honestly, red chip coaches playing in a hole-card revealed game and then going back and having each player talk about their strategy would be an interesting training material as well as a fun (ruthless?) way to see who's style actually wins when pitted against each other. Also might lead to coaches formulating new strategies to counter the existing strategies taught here. Or course that just leads to GTO, right?
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    I am reminded of an old Tom Dwan commercial... "First I played like this guy.... then I learned to play like that guy,,, then that guy... finally I learned to play like me."
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    I am reminded of an old Tom Dwan commercial... "First I played like this guy.... then I learned to play like that guy,,, then that guy... finally I learned to play like me."

    What are you implying tho lol
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    I am reminded of an old Tom Dwan commercial... "First I played like this guy.... then I learned to play like that guy,,, then that guy... finally I learned to play like me."

    What are you implying tho lol

    Me Imply? lol
    In seriousness,,, I studied @MattBerkey and Johnathan Little and Dan Obrien (thanks to InstaPoker which I extremely highly recommend) and Doug Hull and Ed miller and Soto and Split Suit... etc etc
    Each style has its advantages and exploits. Yes I definitley suffered from information overload for awhile, and I still have some leaks I cant seem to find. But I am getting closer and closer to playing my game. That game is highly adaptable, changes based on table dynamics and player pool, and most importantly becoming consistently profitable no matter what stakes, online or live, and in different casinos and home games.

    Though @ChristianSoto I would love some additional coaching at some point, even if as simple as just playing at the same table for a bit either in AC or here at Maryland Live. One thing about Maryland Live, as @DougHull can testify,... every RCP and all the coaches should try to play there atleast once. From what I have read here, it is a bizarre mix of LA poker, Vegas poker, and AC poker under one roof lol.
  • joesizejoesize Red Chipper Posts: 119 ✭✭
    zagarese wrote: »
    William wrote: »
    Who should we listen to?

    Check your watch. At quarter to the hour and quarter after switch strategies. Now you got some harrington in there too

    That's funny. Just fall back on the ol' Random Number Generator!
  • joesizejoesize Red Chipper Posts: 119 ✭✭
    I'm not sure they are as mutually exclusive as you make it out to be. Each is going to be used in different circumstances, against different villains, and each has merit. Soto's approach doesn't appear to be a leak-proof approach, but rather aimed to get villains out of their comfort zone and playing deeper or in situations that aren't familiar with so the villain can't go by rote charts.

    Remind me of a poker question that was on twitter, "Do you get more excited when making a big call or running a big bluff?" Jonathan Little replied, depends on the villain.
    William wrote: »
    One perspective I have is that Ed is telling us how to beat bad to moderately skilled players, and Soto is telling us how to beat people trying to beat bad to moderately skilled players. Who should we listen to?
    Sounds like each is prepping you for different of opponents or at the very least opponents playing at different levels

    William wrote: »
    I think this debate between Soto and Miller is extremely provocative
    I don't think provocative is the word you are looking for here. maybe thought provoking? Please don't have a provocative debate

    I have always followed Ed Miller, ever since I read his first book, and I have them all. I've also followed Soto from the time Red Chip got started, and you never know where the game changers are going to come from. One of mine came from the video on aggression that Soto did with Splitsuit. He said, "... if putting in big money scares you, it scares them even more." That has helped me a lot, and it plays in a kind of continuous loop in my mind when I’m playing. Now, my moves might be right, or they might be wrong, but they won’t be timid.

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