What to do

mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 141 ✭✭
1-2 Full Table

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  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭
  • mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 141 ✭✭
    Ha ha. Fat thumbs made me post prematurely. Here is what was working on when I was sabotaged by my own fingers.

    1-2 Full Table
    Villain in CO ($175)
    Hero on Button ($300)

    3 Limpers to Villain who also limps. Hero with :8s:8h makes it $20 to go. Folds to Villain who calls.

    Pot is $49

    Flop: :Kh:Jh:3c

    Villain donk bets for $10
    Hero calls
    Pot is $69

    Turn: :9s
    Villain bets $10
    Hero raises to $55
    Villain calls very quickly

    River: :9d
    Villain jams all in for his last $90
    Hero???

    Hero's thought process from start is never limp. My standard raise is $10 plus $2 for the limpers. So I made it $20 just so the dealer wouldn't have to make change. Hoping to take it down immediately but pretty happy I only got one caller. Table has been a bit sticky pre-flop.

    Thoughts on Villain aren't much. Never played with him before so no history. All the information I have is from what I have observed and he limps and calls raises almost all the time. If he has money in the pot he will be in the hand to see a flop. Has shown some weak hands on the river to take some medium sized pots and loose some medium sized pots. At this point I put him in any two cards.

    Basically whiffed the flop. If checked to I was going to c-bet for sure and hope to take it down. However, Villain donks $10. I literally watched Ed's Donk Betting video before I went to card room. As Ed categorizes donk betting in his video there is taking a stab, probing, defending protecting, and inducing. This felt like a stab or an inducing donk bet to me. A prob or any of the others would have had a bigger bet to try and get me to fold or announce a monster hand with a large raise. In my mind its an easy call. He either has be crushed, drawing and doesn't want to get blown off his draw, or has air and is stabbing at it.

    Turn is a great card for me. Yes, its an over card to my 8s but his rang is so wide my 8s are doing well against it. So when he donks again for the same amount I decided to put force him to make a decision and fold or come back at me with the top of his range and I can get away from the hand right then and there. His quick call led me to believe that he was on a draw and probably one with an the :Ah.

    River is probably the best card for me. If he missed the nine then his hand didn't improve. However, he pushes it all-in. This doesn't make sense to me. Would sets wait and allow the flush to come in? Would weak top pairs and second pairs call a raise to$55? Would a flush draw or smaller pocket pair do this?

    How would you have played it?
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    What are you trying to accomplish by raising the turn? If raising, you are probably better off raising on the flop. Typically when a player donks for a small amount, especially in smaller games, they have a speculative hand. If you are going to raise at all, better to do it on the flop, as your preflop raise to $20 represents a lot of strength. By calling the flop, you turned your hand into a bluff catcher (as well as basically turning your cards face up, because think about it, how many hands do you have in your range that would raise to $20 pre then flat on this flop). There is no need to raise the turn. By the river, what hands can you beat? a missed flush draw. You are getting 2-1, but do you really think he is bluffing here 33% of the time with such a weird line? Especially betting into the turn raiser?

    you asked how I would have played it. I would have raised the flop bet to somewhere near pot size, and if he flats it, i would have reevaluated the turn. The difference between doing it on the flop and doing it on the turn is simply image related. A raise on the flop, in this situation, looks a lot stronger than a call and raise on the turn.
  • mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 141 ✭✭
    Good points. At this point I was probably considered the most aggressive. I had raised every hand I played pre-flop. Its been my experience with this strategy that early in the session your raises and c-bets get a lot of and probably too much respect. I am usually stacking small to medium pots early on. Then as the session goes some but not all have noticed that I am always raising and c-betting a lot if not too much. I realize I could have a frequency problem with my c-bets but until I get players fold way too often IMO. This is where I am at in the session. I had heard some under the breath rumblings from a few players to the effect "he can't always have it." That is in part why I read his donk bet of $10 into a$49 as a stabbing or an inducing bet.

    I see your point on raising the flop. I was concerned that if I raised the flop the only hands that call are Kx Jx with a strong kicker and big King pairs will raise me out of the pot. If I waited until the turn his entire range is still in play and my pocket 8s are playing much better. The problem with calling I realized then and now is I still haven't narrowed his range. So my thought pattern was raise the turn on most big cards and most hearts. As it turned out the :9s fell. As I said I thought this was a good card for me. I thought his range had plenty of suited cards and from the small donk betting possibly a pair of Kings with a bad kicker. So this card allowed me to raise and if he had something he was going let me know with a re-raise. So when he called so quickly I took that as a heart draw and probably to the nut flush. If he took his time to call I may have interpreted that as a King with a middling kicker or possibly a Jack with a straight draw.

    I disagree that my hand was basically face up. I think my range from his perspective has a lot of strong kings, jacks, two pair, and plenty of straight draws. Its probably the reason he doesn't come over the top of me on the turn. Yes I have turned my hand into a bluff catcher but I didn't think the first 9 helped him so when the second one fell on the river I didn't think it helped him again. At this point I was pretty sure I was ahead of most of his range and if he did have a weak king or jack I thought I could get him off it. Had he not went all in I was going to bet this river.
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    If he checked the river, you'd be betting for value? What hand would he call with that you would beat? Or would you be bluffing? In which case the only hands you will bet off are weaker than your 88. If you had a K, J, or strong draw, you wouldn't raise on this flop?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree with flop raise. Notice that a $10 bet should be treated as a check, and you were going to cbet, so raise now. The turn fills in Q10 and does not make nearly as much sense as a raising spot and is not in your perceived range.
  • kg_bettorkg_bettor Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    :Ah:9h seems possible with this line. Donk small with the nut flush draw, call the turn raise with a pair and nut flush draw, jam the river with trips.

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