Whats your default move here 1/2 fishy table

Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
This is a hypothetical spot but its one i find myself in often enough to pose this question to the forum.

Lets assume we are at a loose passive 1/2 game with most stacks between 50-100 BBs. No real great players but no droolers.

I dont limp much but I tend to limp behind PPs if im in early to mid position and 1 or 2 of the EP players have already open limped.

Now lets say I have the top of my limp behind range specifically 88-99 in 3rd or 4th pos

It goes limp, limp, limp, limp, limp you get the idea...and then either the button or one of the blinds decides to raise to $7. Now we know from playing with this person for a bit that the $7 raise is just a pot builder with something they want to see a flop with but not likely a strong hand. It of course invites all of the other players in the hand to call and it gets back to us with the pot being maybe about $40 at this point with 2 or 3 limpers yet to act behind us.

Is your default here to just throw the $5 and concede losing it unless we hit our set...or are we better off making a big raise, and if so HOW BIG?

Im sure others have been in this spot and id love to hear peoples thoughts.

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Right up to $77 if I ever take that line.
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
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  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    I'd like to address your question by saying that you shouldn't even put yourself in this spot to begin with.

    I don't like just tossing the $5 and praying that it's my turn to win the pot. You do that and everyone else comes along and your equity gets lower and lower with each call. And are you even really playing poker at that point?

    Conversely, re-popping it to $40 doesn't make much sense if you had already limped behind a couple other players. Maybe if you were the first limper you could get away with this, but otherwise I think it looks odd and you'll get looked up, or shoved on, fairly often.

    All that being said, this is a home game and perhaps there's a game flow that needs to be heeded. I know ChipXTractor made a comment, perhaps in his vlog, that raising pre- flop in one of his home games was frowned upon. I recently was invited to a home tournament where I got there early and played in a 1/1 cash game. I made it $3 once and 3 guys made a comment. I started raising to $2.

    So if there's some weird home game dynamic occurring, I prefer raising to $40 over calling the $7.
  • SUsHISUsHI Red Chipper Posts: 13
    edited February 2016
    I usually iso 77-99, even over 3 or 4 limps. is that too loose?? In the past I liked over-limping or even open limping them :0 i know.... then calling the pot builder raise if there was one, but I prefer the former these days. There were a few times I wanted to back-raise a pot builder, I think I might've done it with success a few times but I really rather stay away from the weird lines that get you into weird spots and go with a more straight forward approach in this situation. To answer your question if I were to back-raise in your spot I'd go 42-77 depending how loose the villains are. Oh and just calling the pot builder should also be fine because were getting way the right price to set mine but like I said before I think I rather just take the initiative myself almost always.
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Why not make pot building raises to $10 or so with all your pairs? Your opponents are $100~200 deep and probably are more likely to call than to limp/reraise or something. You may as well inflate the pot a bit to stack someone when you hit a set.

    Let's say you limp/call and hit a set in mid position. It's likely that the pot will be multiway and everyone's natural reaction is to check to the raiser. You'll probably end up having to donk into the raiser on anything except for super-dry boards because you don't expect a c-bet to come unless the original raiser actually has something.

    If you raise over the limpers, you only really get punished if someone finds QQ+/AK and decides to 3-bet (old guys dont always 3bet AK and QQ), knocking you out of a hand you could have limp/called. At a fishy 1/2 table, I dont expect anyone to 3-bet you light or anything like that.
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Skors3: If you limp/call in this spot, you're getting 8:1 for a 7.5:1 chance to hit a set, with additional implied odds. Calling is perfectly fine.

    I suppose if you're really that sure that the late position raise is never a big pair, then you'd want to make the limp/3-bet to be big enough that only 1 player considers calling.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mostly agree with sushi and jesse here. Limping along is OK preflop because in multiway hands you can really get your sets paid off. Iso-raising is also good. However once you've limped (let's say after 2-3 limpers), it then gets raised behind you, and now all of a sudden you jack it up, that just sounds too fishy to me. It actually sounds like exactly what you've got - 77-99. Some people will limp reraise AA in EP, but not usually once there are several limpers. I think you're going to get called light-ish preflop and not have any idea where you stand postflop, often against 2 or 3 opponents.

    On the other hand, you're totally fine calling the small raise and setmining. I see no reason your equity would be going down just because someone raised behind you, and all the original limpers called. Your equity should be about the same, but your chance for stacking someone probably just went up. See the discussion here for more:

    http://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/2890/the-set-mining-multiplier-again-
    probably
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Skors3 wrote: »
    I recently was invited to a home tournament where I got there early and played in a 1/1 cash game. I made it $3 once and 3 guys made a comment. I started raising to $2.

    lol

  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    What, somewhat exactly, is your overlimp range here before you decide what you should do in this spot?

    Sounds like 99+ is a pre-flop raise the limpers hand.

    If you preflop limp 67s would you be comfortable or capable of taking that up to $77 if you would also do that with 88?
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    This can depend a lot on which room you're playing in. In some rooms $7 is a standard raise in 1-2 NL and many players don't change their bet sizing much in multiway pots. A lot of these players are the guys who make complaints like "I raise with AA and AK and nobody folds. What do I do?" So my standard play is just to call.

    However, if you're certain the raiser doesn't have much, then I think the huge raise sounds really good. These players are mostly playing their own cards and want to see cheap flops. They will call the $7 raise because they think it's only $5 more, everyone is calling, and they think they have implied odds. Once you make it huge they are folding a lot of the time in my opinion because their ranges are so weak, and with much of that range they want to see cheap flops.

    If you've been card dead and have a nitty image, your raise could look really strong to some people. They could think you didn't raise earlier because it was going multiway and you wanted to see a flop first because "They all call and suck out on me anyway," and now the pot is already getting big so you're going to stop slowplaying.

    If you have a loose image it looks much more suspicious, but I'm personally skeptical of the idea that a loose image gets a player a lot more action.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    Skors3 wrote: »
    I don't like just tossing the $5 and praying that it's my turn to win the pot. You do that and everyone else comes along and your equity gets lower and lower with each call. And are you even really playing poker at that point?

    Having lower equity is fine if the implied odds are there. That's what makes a lot of these loose games with multiway pots so profitable. Your equity is lower when you enter pots with bad players, but you win pots that are so large that the size of the pots more than makes up for it.

    We're playing against people who limp in with garbage like K5o, 93o, A6o, etc. So we are playing much better poker than they are when we limp in with a hand like 88.

  • Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    zagarese wrote: »
    What, somewhat exactly, is your overlimp range here before you decide what you should do in this spot?

    Sounds like 99+ is a pre-flop raise the limpers hand.

    If you preflop limp 67s would you be comfortable or capable of taking that up to $77 if you would also do that with 88?

    absolutely not. Im not looking to balance. Im playing against below avg non-thinking 1-2 players. Actually 67s is a fold for me pre in this position.
  • Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    I thank you guys for the all the comments. The main thing Im taking away here is I really shouldnt be afraid to iso raise preflop in this spot with my medium pocket pairs. I'll definately try better to incorporate that into my game. Thanks!

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