$1/$3 I thought I knew the right play here

OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
$1/$3 at a OK casino

UTG ($350) V1 straddles to $6
UTG1 calls
MP1 ($230) calls
MP2 ($289) Hero :Qh:Qs raises to $25
UTG V1 calls
UTG1 calls
MP1 calls

Flop ($100)
:Th:9s:5h

UTG V1 leads $55
UTG1 folds
MP1 V2 calls
Hero ??

Reads
V1: super loose, easily playing over 50% of hands. Saw him call a $18 raise on his UTG straddle later in the session with J2o

V2: passive player with a wide range. Had shown down and overlimped 84s from MP.

Hero: has played very few hands almost an hour in--it's only the second hand I've raised.

I thought I knew what the best play was here, but was a bit surprised by equities when I ran them later.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Likely up against Tx and a draw of some sort. My default is to jam here.

    I think you're 30% vs 2pair, really only dead vs sets.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Agreed.

    SPR 2.5. Jam with TPGK. Overpairs, Big draws when 3 or under IMO.

    You will be dodging some bullets here but have to be consistent

    P.S. bigger preflop IMO. Pot sized bet is $34. I would really hit them with like $40-$45
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    sullyoo, agreed on preflop bet-sizing. Would not have changed preflop action vs these villains, but would have made better SPR if we shove flop.
  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    i have to agree with everyone here and would jam also, your stack depth isn't that deep and you would hate to just flat and get drawn out on on a later street and then be kicking yourself for not jamming the flop, 2 players makes it a little trickier but i would still shove unles your stack was much deeper
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    Thanks for the feedback. I did jam, V1 snap-called with T9, as did V2 with his A3hh and got there. The only thing that surprised me was that I wasn't the favorite 3-way vs their ranges, even though I'm a favorite against each of them heads up. Can anyone explain this?



  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Think about this board, your hand, and the action:

    1. 2 opponents limp called pre.
    2. You described these opponents as loose passive, yet you raise to 25 in front of them in a straddled pot.
    3. This board favors a calling range.
    4. A passive opponent leads, which commits his stack
    5. Passive opponent calls lead, which commits his stack.
    6. Given known hearts a lot of heart draws at least have an overcard if not some combo draw.
    7. At best youre up against naked hearts, 78, or Tx. You block QJ as a possible draw you beat. You block some heart draws as well.

    Given this info im not surprised its thin.
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Outlier wrote: »
    Thanks for the feedback. I did jam, V1 snap-called with T9, as did V2 with his A3hh and got there. The only thing that surprised me was that I wasn't the favorite 3-way vs their ranges, even though I'm a favorite against each of them heads up. Can anyone explain this?

    You have good equity vs each range indivually, but combined, they have good equity vs you because their hands dont clash with each other in that they dont share the same outs if behind.

    your equity is still above 33% right?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Outlier wrote: »
    The only thing that surprised me was that I wasn't the favorite 3-way vs their ranges, even though I'm a favorite against each of them heads up. Can anyone explain this?

    I think you must have made a mistake, you're not nearly a favorite against T9 :)

    I just shove it in here most of the time, player dependent, without a whole lot of thought. If you don't think it would have made any difference in the action, then I definitely raise more preflop. What you really want here is not finding "pain thresholds", you want to be all in with them preflop if possible. If I think they'll fold to more, then I have to decide how they play postflop to decide if I want them in with a smaller raise.

  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    I would have made it $30 PF. If you think several people will call $30 then make it more.
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    jeffnc, I probably didn't make it clear enough about being a favorite against each of them. What I meant is that I'm a favorite against each of their ranges separately. The guy vs T9 has all kinds of other hands in there in addition to T9, ie AT and KT, maybe even with a weaker kicker.

    At the time, I made it $25 because I thought I might lose them with $30, ie, I thought pain threshold was right around there. Nevertheless, I agree $30 is probably a more "correct" raise here.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Outlier wrote: »
    jeffnc, I probably didn't make it clear enough about being a favorite against each of them. What I meant is that I'm a favorite against each of their ranges separately.

    Well if you're asking how you can be a favorite to one range heads up, and a favorite to another range heads up, but not a favorite to both of them, then that's pretty easy. Of course the more people in the hand, the more your equity drops. The important thing in multi-way hands is not to be the favorite, but simply to be in a high enough equity situation to be +EV.

    For example, you could be a 55% favorite against one player heads up. But against 2 players, you only have 45% equity. While you might not be a favorite to win the hand, it's still good because you're only putting in 33% of the money, but getting back 45%.

    If you're heads up preflop with AA, you're a favorite against any range (assuming the range is not 100% AA, obviously). But what you really want is to get all in against the entire table. Then surely you're not a favorite. But you're going to be something like 20%, which is a great situation having put in only 10%. That's a 100% ROI. Good deal if you can get it.

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