Fold or call?

BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
Tournament. Blinds 1600/800 w/ 100 ante. Hero has 25k. Villian 7k.

7 handed. MP limps. Cutoff limps. They are both relatively tight with stacks around 11k. Hero looks at :Ac:Ts Hero limps because he's sure one of the limpers has a bigger Ace (due to their hand ranges). If hero raises, he's sure he's looking at at least one 11k shove preflop. SB completes and BB checks. Pot = 7,200.

Flop is :Ah:8h:Qh. Checks around.

Turn is :8s.

Villian in SB goes all in for 5,500. MP insta-folds. Cutoff folds after tanking for a good two minutes. And it's to hero to close out the action. Pot = 12,700.

Villian is a very solid player that we REALLY don't want to double up. Especially with him directly to our left. Hero has completely ruled out a bluff and Queen. Keep in mind, hero is in the pot for 1,700.

Call or fold?

Comments

  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    I don't think u should have put yourself in that spot to begin with I think your pre flop play was either raise or fold and with it being a tournament folding should have been the first thing to do also you were worried about someone having a better ace pre flop so really you have to be hoping to flop 2 pair or second best would be a 10 high board which the odds of flopping 2 pair are slim and don't warrant a call but anyway by the time you get to the turn and face a jam by the small blind I think you have to call you could be beat but after all players showing weakness on the flop you have invited him to jam the turn with worse aces and maybe a queen or maybe he's got 3 eights and fears another heart but I would still call there's enough hands you beat and a small amount you loose to and a few your chopping with. Also I wouldn't be concerned that your in the hand for 1700 that belongs to the pot once you call I'd be more looking at pot odds and hand ranges ect
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    Gosh, the way you describe it, it's a pretty easy fold preflop and a pretty easy fold on the turn. You can't beat any ace that you were beating preflop!
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    philby20 wrote: »
    I don't think u should have put yourself in that spot to begin with I think your pre flop play was either raise or fold and with it being a tournament folding should have been the first thing to do also you were worried about someone having a better ace pre flop

    Very true. Before I limped I thought....I should fold here. Usually I think of a situation like this as a fold or raise. But sometimes I get a feeling. I put one of the two limpers behind me on a better range.....but why did they just call? Maybe I could blast them off their hand if low cards hit. Or better yet a 10. I felt like I should see a flop and reassess. I also felt confident that SB and BB would let me see the flop for a limp so that's what I did. Unconventional, I know. But I'm a feel player. When the Ace flopped, I wasn't crazy about it. That's why I checked on the button. I'd limp all day and tomorrow for 5% of my stack....with A-10o.....on the button.....if I was assured to see the flop. In the end, I felt like I'd see a cheap flop on the button and I took the chance. It worked out.....for better or worse.
  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    What if u could see the limpers hand pre and seen they had ace j would u still call
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    philby20 wrote: »
    What if u could see the limpers hand pre and seen they had ace j would u still call
    Although this is a bit of a silly question, I'll entertain it. I absolutely would call if someone flipped AJ over and just called. I'd be last to act and would know what he had. So I could bluff if nothing hit or push with a 10 on board. If he flipped over AJ and put in a raise, I'd fold. Once again this is NEVER going to happen. If he exposed his cards or even talked about his hand the floor would be forced to kill his hand. Tournament rules.

    I still like my limp here.....
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see how you can like calling with a dominated hand, I think that's what philby was trying to get at. You're basically saying you're hoping the flop comes a miracle, unless you like your chances bluffing into 4 people. I think that's how most of us are viewing this hand. You can't win a flop with an A on it unless it's AT specifically. You can't bet or maybe even call a flop with any overcard to your T. The math isn't there for hoping for KQJ flops, etc.
  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    Anyone have an opinion on the spot as is?

    I don't play enough hold'em tournaments to have a decent opinion but I'd like to hear more about now-that-we-are-here...
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    zagarese wrote: »
    Anyone have an opinion on the spot as is?

    I don't play enough hold'em tournaments to have a decent opinion but I'd like to hear more about now-that-we-are-here...

    If bluffs and queens are ruled out as Op mentioned(it would take a very special type of player to make this bluff into 5 players), fold. We'd be calling to chop at best. 6 handed we are likely against either a made flush or trips that would make this bet, and either way would be drawing to 2 outs (maybe less with a tank fold in front of us).
  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    The spot as is:

    It really doesn't matter what the hero is in the pot for at this point. Villain is shoving 5500 into 3 people behind them after checking the flop (something people do in first position with a strong hand frequently). It is hard to put Villain on less than an A, meaning Hero is at best getting a chopped pot. So instead of 5500 to win 12,700, it is 5500 to win 6,350. This means that you have to be right about it being a chop (and him not having another heart to go along with his A) nearly 100% of the time. This isn't origami. Easy fold.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    Ok people. I should have mentioned that I'm on a bit of a heater and felt like keeping it going. As the chips went in the pot, I shuttered a little inside. I know I should have raised or folded. But it is what it is and now I'm in. For 1 BB I might add.

    After going in the tank for a minute I self imposed a clock from the floor. The players were a mix of amazed, shocked and amused. I've never done it before but I really liked it. I didn't want to overthink the situation. It actually made me think more clearly as I wasn't worried about the other players getting antsy (as this particular hand is taking quite a while). The word call was in my mouth and almost came out twice during the minute.

    My take is that he either has an 8 or an Ace. If he has an Ace, I'm thinking he has a heart to back it up. My final thought as the floor counted down my last 5 seconds was "Chips saved....Are chips earned".

    The dealer took my dead hand and off we went to the next hand. I lost 1 BB.

    3 hands later I was involved in a pot with :8s:8d and my stack went from 25k to 12k. Two hands later I was doubled up with my :As:Ac. Then 3 hands after that I was dealt a beautiful :Ah:Ad and doubled through again (ironically through the SB Villian). I barely had him covered so I did end up felting him in the end after all.

    The reason I mention these 3 other hands is that the fold to conserve my chips proved bountiful. Chips saved are chips earned in a tournament. That was a very important 5,500 to have in my stack for my double ups. It's also very possible that I would have been priced into going All in with my 8's when I flopped second pair and was checked to. But I had enough to play those 8's ABC style and not have to commit too much. I would have most likely gotten crushed and never seen those Aces.

    Those :As:Ad:Ac:Ah catapulted me to 3rd place money.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    After the tournament I sat with the SB Villian at a cash game. A really nice, standup kind of guy. He gladly told me he held :As:9h He had a free roll on hearts And the 4 remaining 9's for the win. I was down to the case :Td to win. Otherwise it was a small split pot. I ABSOLUTELY believe he had the hand he told me he had.

    Overall, a good result for me.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    BenLeewood wrote: »
    I ABSOLUTELY believe he had the hand he told me he had.
    Yeah, seems like an odd hand to 'make up', and really no value in lying about it. Glad you had some good results!
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 291 ✭✭
    edited February 2016
    You are playing emotionally. "I had a feeling". "I was on a heater". These are emotional reactions to the game - you should be trying to eliminate emotion and make decisions from the standpoint of logic and sound strategy. The people in the forum are going to do their best to give you advice based on sound strategy - dismissing their advice to fold preflop for an emotional reason is fine, but then you really didn't need advice, did you?

    As is often the case, a poor decision made preflop often compounds itself into a very tough decision postflop. Your "feeling" got you stuck in a no-win scenario. You can beat a couple Ace-x and total bluffs. You're losing to most aces, a zillion flushes, boats, trip eights, etc.

    My advice is fold the turn (even after reading the results). You're not beating much. You're in a tourney and chips are precious. If he's bluffing or value betting worse, then fine, tip your cap. But the best advice is to not limp and play "hit to win" poker.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    taglius wrote: »
    You are playing emotionally. "I had a feeling". "I was on a heater". These are emotional reactions to the game - you should be trying to eliminate emotion and make decisions from the standpoint of logic and sound strategy. The people in the forum are going to do their best to give you advice based on sound strategy - dismissing their advice to fold preflop for an emotional reason is fine, but then you really didn't need advice, did you?
    I agree to a certain degree. I play by feel and since I just moved tables and got hot cards...I went with it. My image since arriving was an action player. I was planning on changing gears to my usual TAG mode after this hand.

    I'm not really asking for advice from the forum persay. But I'm always curious to see how fellow redchippers would play the hand.

    I just thought this was an interesting hand to discuss and break down. So I wanted to share it.
  • ShayneShayne Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Perhaps before your next tourney consider sacrificing a virgin. Perhaps not a human virgin, depending on local laws. I've tried this and the results have been spectacular. The logical players are going to poo poo this, but as a feel player you know this is worth a go.

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