AKss is over rated by me and a lot of other people.

Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
I am not a big AK fan. I think the hand is over rated. Shame on me. I have lost with it so, so often. I realize it is MY fault. But I got mixed up when I started playing and read hand rankings. Starting hand ranking. I often see this hand ranked very high. But against 2,2 it is barely a favorite.

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ks 852207 49.77 849322 49.60 10775 0.63 0.501
2d 2h 849322 49.60 852207 49.77 10775 0.63 0.499

How does this hand continue to be ranked so high?

Comments

  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    Yeah, raw data is going to show it isn't much better than 22, but the playability is more why it is ranked so high. If you hit a pair, it's top pair and gives great implied odds for someone with a weaker king or ace to lose a big pot. It also has better semi-bluff opportunity than 22, where you'll at minimum have 6 outs to catch up or leap ahead, let alone any FD/BDFD.

    Let's say the flop is 9 5 3 rainbow. What hand is going to work better as a semibluff? Sure, the 2s are ahead right now, but I'd take betting with the AK every day(or even floating for that matter). If you can bet with a hand in more situations and pick up money without going to showdown, isn't that going to significantly outweigh a lot of pocket pairs where all you can really do is set mine and maybe have limited maneuverability?
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
    I think HU you play AKss much more confidently and will C-bet a missed flop the the AK. But it's still a bluff. A lot of players will probably fold the 2s because they see three overs. Often a small pair wins as a bluff catcher. I am not saying I would even play the 2s as strong as AK, but maybe I should.
  • roberekhanroberekhan Red Chipper Posts: 13

    Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
    cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
    As Ks 852207 49.77 849322 49.60 10775 0.63 0.501
    2d 2h 849322 49.60 852207 49.77 10775 0.63 0.499

    This is hot/cold equity.
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Mandal wrote: »

    Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
    cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
    As Ks 852207 49.77 849322 49.60 10775 0.63 0.501
    2d 2h 849322 49.60 852207 49.77 10775 0.63 0.499

    This is hot/cold equity.
    That's true. I still say, let me put it this way. Beginning poker players are taught AK is a more powerful hand than it might actually be and are quite often stacked playing it like a top 5 hand pre. This is opinion based, biased because of losses suffered at the hands of these two monster cards.

    Many beginner will go to showdown with AKss unpaired. KQss, not so much. And in truth, AK is a bluff catcher. But I think this one hand has lost more money than any other hand in poker.

  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    Bill,
    Maybe you're just mis-playing AK?
    If this hand has lost you more money then any other hand, you're doing something wrong.

    Matt
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,975 -
    Let's hypothetically say we take AK out of our aggression ranges preflop and start to "treat it like the drawing hand that it is" (I shudder just saying such a thing)...

    If that's the case then your aggression ranges preflop are either:

    1. SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPER tight
    2. Have far too much trash in them

    At that point why even bother 3betting AA or KK?
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Flopzilla shows the playability of these on the flop fairly well, and I know which one I'd rather cbet with

    Image link : AKs v 22
    Range has hit _____ of the time look like AK is 2.5x more playable on the flop. All you can really do with 22 is setmine
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
    GabeyJ wrote: »
    This is sad
    No. This is a discussion. I am not married to any opinion and I sure am not throwing AK in the muck pre. Although, I did that once after I lost $600+ with AK in 20 minutes on three hands. The flop when I mucked it. AKK. The hand also knocked my out of the WSOP where I finished in the money. AQ took it down. So, I will say, AK and I have some history.

    But sometimes, maybe it's okay for someone to say something contrary to popular opinion and stimulate some conversation.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    It's still sad to me I might actually cry
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Riverboat Bill:
    I feel like you've been overly results oriented when it comes to your thinking of AK. You've had several bad experiences with the hand, and now you're unsure why everyone seems to think it's a good hand.

    Here are some thoughts, in no particular order.

    AK is a good hand, but nowhere near as strong as AA or KK. However, played correctly, it is a very profitable hand to play. It's a profitable hand to raise with because you expect your opponents to call with significantly worse hands a huge % of the time.

    It's possible that you've overplayed your hand in some situations and/or missed indications where your opponents' actions should have informed you that your hand was no good.

    It's possible that you're playing in a very loose poker game that when you make a large raise preflop, you get multiway action. In these situations, perhaps you feel married to the fact that you raised preflop and feel the need to continue aggression postflop into multiple opponents. Don't do this - there is no shame in folding AK in a 5-way pot on a board you mostly miss.

    I suppose my only piece of advice is to figure out a way to record your hands and get feedback on your play. This is probably easiest to do online for micro stakes, or to just get a pencil and paper and write down every hand (even the ones you dont play) for a session. Watching other people play poker is a valuable skill.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    My AA got beaten by Q8s early in a tourney last night, does that make AA an overrated hand? No, it got sucked out on. You can't say AK is overrated because AQ beat it once.

    Note that I actually agree with some of the points you're making, but this example isn't one of them .

    AK is not a premium hand in the same class as AA/KK, obviously, which are "made hands". What it's useful for is being the first non-premium semibluffing hand hand we add to our 3betting ranges, for the reasons explained upthread. It's the perfect hand for semibluffing - we get better to fold (small pairs), and have a ton of equity when called. Even when we 3bet AK and it costs us money, we have to compare that money against all the money we win because people end up going too far with TT and JJ against us when we have AA/KK, because they know our 3bets can be AK. So we're winning more with our big pairs, and that should offset the losses by AK.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 941 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    The problem with AK is not that "it's a drawing hand" or that it does not hit flops well (Ive never not had at least two over cards when I've played AK on the flop maybe I'm just luck LOL)....

    The problem is everyone puts you on AK....AA on a T high board can often bet big 3 times and get paid off since they put you on AK...

    QJ on a T high board can bet an A or K because its a good threat card...a Q or J becues it hits and they may still put you on ak and hell an 9 because it gives you the draw...

    Poor AK when it hits the turn gets folds becaue well they put you on AK....and every thing else is not as good...and if you continue betting on other cards, you get called down more because well they put you on AK....

    So you have to be a little careful with it...calling stations today need an excuse to call, and well you have AK is one....

    It also likes to see 5 cards...so squeezing all in is often a great play....if called it's only really in bad shape agianst AA....KK it has 30% and with dead money may be close to break even...and against everything else it has close to 50% or better...and with dead money is pretty sweet. And to make everyone happy...AK is the best blocker hand for 3 betting there is as it has blockers to the dreaded AA and KK...

    So if your careful on how you play AK against the simpleton hand readers ...it tends to do pretty well....but it does need that care...

  • kg_bettorkg_bettor Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Great post Eazzy, excellent thinking, IMO.
  • roberekhanroberekhan Red Chipper Posts: 13
    edited March 2016
    AK in tournaments= Just shove it and pray
    But in cash games they give me hard times, specially when you flop 3 trash with none of your suit.
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Nightly 30K. Playing decent, just got in the money. I have 15BB in the BB, I shove and get called. I have KQhh get called by 33os. 33 wins!!
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,975 -
    Nightly 30K. Playing decent, just got in the money. I have 15BB in the BB, I shove and get called. I have KQhh get called by 33os. 33 wins!!

    Not to be disrespectful, but this kind of post adds nothing to the community and is wasted mental energy. It's a standard hand, it means nothing, and there is nothing to learn from it.
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 362 ✭✭
    I sympathise a lot here having had similar recent experiences with AK. You just have to accept you're running bad with it and continue with the plan = being aggressive. The main reason I ran bad with it was that bad players kept calling my 3-bet with pocket pairs and jamming the flop with an over-pair (when I whiffed); otherwise all-ins in cash games went v bad! Fortunately the run-bad ended and it's a profitable hand once again ... as it will be for you.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Every time you complain about AK you make the Gabey Jesus cry.

    Somebody put this thread out of its misery.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 452 ✭✭
    OK. My apologies. :)

    SHOOT THE THREAD!!

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