The course

philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
I have been working through the videos in the course lately I'm up to episode four. My question is we're do u stand on limping behind with 3plus limpers when in the button or cutoff seat and look down at a hand like ace seven suited or any suited ace 9 down or a small pairs 2-7s in the videos ed is highly against limping apart from in a few circumstances are these ranges the few circumstances where limping would be OK

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    edited February 2016
    I don't want to speak for Ed, but from the CO/BUT vs 3 or more limpers I'm limping behind with a lot of speculative stuff (assuming the effective stacks aren't super small). Things like 22-66, suited connectors, suited stuff like Q9s and A3s - etc.
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  • Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    Keep in mind that in episode 4 of The Course series, Ed is still talking about strategies to beat 1/2 games. At these stakes, you see a lot of limping and VERY wide ranges. Ed's strategies emphasize folding weaker hands so that you will have a range advantage when you do play, and to play those hands aggressively to isolate players who will be out of position with a weaker range than you post flop. Limping is one of the mistakes that players at this level make, and you should be exploiting that mistake, not emulating it.

    If you feel you have a strong post flop game and have a strong edge over your opponents, limping in late position becomes more of an option. If you are playing 1/2 and working on beating that level, limping is generally not recommended. The goal is not to limp in and try to make a hand; that is what all your opponents are doing. You want to create situations where you have an edge and exploit those opportunities. That is the core of what The Course is about.

    If you haven't read Ed's book that is the basis of this series, I highly recommend it. It is one of my favorite poker books, and has more than paid for itself.
  • SamuelSamuel Red Chipper Posts: 18
    I'm sympathetic to the original post. If three people limp in and I'm on the button with 22, I have not had much success raising to "punish the limpers". Inevitably you will get one to three callers. If you hit your set, great. If you miss, you have a hand that is difficult to play. Against two limp-callers you probably have about 25%-30% equity and it's very difficult equity to realize. Is it possible that the best play is the one no one considers - fold? For those of you who use PokerSnowie, if you run a scenario with 2 limpers and put yourself on the button, it'll tell you to fold with 22-77, and call with 88-99, and to start thinking about raising with TT+. Granted this is against very good players, where a raise from the SB and BB is very possible, but it's interesting, nonetheless.
  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    Thanks for the advise guys I like limping behind in these spots with speculative hands that play better with a big spr I will raise sometimes but it's around 80-20 in favour for limping. But I wasn't sure if I was playing optimal with that range and that spot after watching the videos thanks for clearing that up
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    It depends a lot on the table for me. In Vegas I've found that in the 1/3 games and in many of the 1/2 games I can make a bunch of raises from the CO and BTN with lots of suited hands and often take it down either PF or on the flop. I can often run over the table doing this. If I have a hand like A4s or Q9s, a couple of people limp in, and I raise to $21 from the BTN in a 1/3 game and take down a quick $10, that's a pretty good result. If someone wants to call the $21 (and it's usually just 1 caller) and fold to my c-bets a large percentage of the time, even better. You really take players out of their comfort zone when you do this and force them to make more mistakes. Many players will quickly limp-fold and it's a mistake you can take advantage of. They're basically handing you free money. You can also get a lot of players to fold hands that even dominate you, which is far less likely to happen if you just limp and hope to hit something.

    If a 1-2 table is REALLY loose (they're calling my raises too much and are way too loose in other hands) then I'll limp more often in late position. Those types of players are more likely to pay off when you hit.

    I'm not as comfortable raising pocket pairs, and I'm more likely to raise them in a 2/5 game where balancing my ranges will have at least a little more value. Also, with suited and connected hands I like flopping draws and trying some semi-bluffs with them. With pocket pairs your equity is much weaker when you miss the flop and try some type of semi-bluff anyway.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016
    Samuel wrote: »
    I'm sympathetic to the original post. If three people limp in and I'm on the button with 22, I have not had much success raising to "punish the limpers". Inevitably you will get one to three callers. If you hit your set, great. If you miss, you have a hand that is difficult to play. Against two limp-callers you probably have about 25%-30% equity and it's very difficult equity to realize. Is it possible that the best play is the one no one considers - fold? For those of you who use PokerSnowie, if you run a scenario with 2 limpers and put yourself on the button, it'll tell you to fold with 22-77, and call with 88-99, and to start thinking about raising with TT+. Granted this is against very good players, where a raise from the SB and BB is very possible, but it's interesting, nonetheless.

    I actually think small pocket pairs are easy to play after the flop. If you miss your set your hand doesn't have much value and you basically have a weak hand. If someone bets I'll typically just fold. If it's checked to me (after I was the PF raiser) and I have 1 opponent I'll c-bet a lot. Against 3 opponents I tend to just check behind and hope I hit the turn with the plan to usually check/fold when I don't. 2 opponents is where it gets tricky and I might c-bet or check behind (depends on the board, my opponents, etc.)

    I'm not folding PF on the BTN after 2 weak players limped in and 2 more weak players are likely to come in behind me. I'll know right away on the flop if I hit something big and I'll get to act after everybody else does. That's way too much for me to pass up.
  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    thanks for the advise steve i see what you mean it is very table dependent if u think ull get a bunch of folds then act in a way that will generate folds if not than the alternate passive way is better cheers good advise :)

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