Pocket Queens In the Small Blind

thepokermonkthepokermonk Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭✭
$1/$2 NLHE live game

Hero SB :Qs:Qh
Elderly, tight-passive reg in MP leads $10
Hero 3-bets to $25
Villain 4-bets to $55 leaving himself $55 behind
Hero calls

($110) :As:Ts:2d

Hero checks
Villain immediately, without thinking at all, shoves all-in for $55.
Hero folds.

Questions:
Should I have gotten away from this hand preflop? These tight, elderly regs are known for only raising with premium hands and I can't imagine him betting 4-betting with less than AA, KK, QQ and maybe AK suited. Or maybe I should have pushed him all-in preflop?
Should I have called the $55 all-in, getting 3:1? I just couldn't envision a hand I could beat.
Tagged:

Comments

  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    I think you save yourself $55 by not calling on the flop given the range you assigned no old nit ever 4 bets jacks so there's nothing left you beat qqs are a tough hand to play when facing a 4 bet I find the looser the player the more likely I get it in or if there has been a lot of back and forth confrontation between me and villain the more likely I get it in and sometimes you just get priced in if you think there range includes ak
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    Dependends on your bankroll. If you think he may not have an Ace.......a shove is in order. As long as your comfortable with pulling out the second bullet if your wrong. QQ is the third best starting hand in hold em'. I want to get a lot of money in preflop. Since he already put in 55, you knew he had to shove no matter,what flopped. And that's what he did.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    He has an ace. Good fold
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    A raise AND a 4-bet from an old, tight-passive reg in a 1-2 NL game? I would expect his range to be KK+ or maybe even only AA. These guys are so incredibly passive here that even with KK they would worry that you 3-bet with aces because there isn't much 3-betting in a lot of 1-2 NL games. And before the flop this guy seems to want to get all the chips in. I don't think they do that with AK and with QQ they are too scared you have them crushed.

    How often do you see the old, passive guy in a 1-2 NL game raise and then 4-bet PF? It's super rare.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    It means Aces 100% of the time.
  • jbruelsjbruels Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Funny, 4-bet to $55 is pretty ridiculous. Why not shove the rest in? Because he would have such an achy breaky heart if shoved, you folded and his beautiful AA only won $35. I think you can get away when this guy 4-bets. The hands you are HOPING he has you are only flipping with.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    First of all - V bets to $10. Hero raises to $25. And V 3-bets to $55.
    There is no 4-bet here. It's blinds, a bet, raise, 3-bet.

    Next - if V is really that short and that nitty - this is a raise/fold all day.
    But don't make it a girlie $25 raise - make a raise like you mean it. Bet $30 or $35 - esp if V only has a little over $100 left. If he shoves, muck.

    But as played - I'm probably calling. He could have JJ which we beat, QQ which we tie and if we're behind AA, KK or AK, we still got outs to a flush, str8 or set (although not a lot). I once had a similar hand go down like this and I bet the flop (trying to represent the A) and a tight player shoved for double my bet... I made a crying call and ended winning because he had JJ. Not saying that it was a great move - but sometimes even the nitty get tired of folding and can overplay their hand.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with almost everything Kagney said. Except the fact it is a 4 bet.

    Its preflop so the $10 at $1/2 is a 2 bet, 3bet to $25, and 4 bet to $55. Post flop it would only be a 3bet because there are no blinds.

    Preflop I am 3 betting to $35 and giving them a bad price on AT+, AK, 99-JJ etc. Most of the time they are going to call and play fit / fold post flop. They will call $25 more preflop and check / fold their AK on low flops. Why not make the extra $10 pre when they are going to miss 2/3 of the time?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I agree with almost everything Kagney said. Except the fact it is a 4 bet.

    ok - u win.
    Poker News says it is a 3- and 4-bet.
    my bad.

    btw - no "n" in kagey. nor related to these guys.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    I agree with almost everything Kagney said. Except the fact it is a 4 bet.

    ok - u win.
    Poker News says it is a 3- and 4-bet.
    my bad.

    btw - no "n" in kagey. nor related to these guys.

    no "n" noted. I have had "kagney" stuck in my head for so long.... Maybe there is another kagney? or an online player named Kagney? Anyways overall strategy we agree.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    It's just a shove plain and simple eff stacks are to low to worry about anything else.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    You're going to need about 38% equity to break even if you shove. If his range is AA or KK+, then your equity is 18%. Throw in QQ+ and it's 20%. Throw in AKs and it's 28%. Only if you throw in all AK combos does it get to 40%. And even that's barely good enough. AQs makes it aroud 41-42% and I think that's really optimistic. Only if you start adding other hands like JJ or AQ does it really start going way in your favor and these old guys often don't even raise at all PF with AK or JJ so I think that's extremely optimistic. I've heard more old guys bitch about JJ than I've seen old guys 4-bet them.

    Ed Miller in his book on hand reading said that some villains only 3-bet with KK+ or in some cases even AA. And this guy raised and 4-bet which looks much stronger. So unless you have a good reason to think he is on tilt I wouldn't pay him off.

    I'm going to ask for some other opinions on this hand just to make sure I'm not off on this. One thing I know from experience is I used to be very nitty myself when I started playing NL and I'd never show up with JJ or AQ (or even AK because I didn't raise it PF) here if I was villain.
  • Steve007Steve007 Red Chipper Posts: 363 ✭✭✭
    One thing someone pointed out to me recently is it's very telling that the 4-bet from villain isn't all-in.

    I'm surprised at the responses here because anyone else I've asked thinks these old guys aren't 4-betting with anything less than QQ. If that's true then not folding is clearly a mistake. It's not like we can just call because we don't even have odds to set mine. And what's our plan on the flop if we call?

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