Check-raised on turn with 2nd pair vs possible bluff or protection raise

ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
edited March 2016 in Live Poker Hands
Villain is a thinking older player. He knows I can c-bet and barrel multiple streets. He can make large over-bets on a given street with TP+ or draws or bluffs. He is a little loose and will limp with speculative hands but will raise strong hands pre-flop. From my tracking app I have seen the following hands in his range in early position:

Limping range: 54s, Q7s
Limp calling range: K9s
Cold calling range: 55, Kxs, A9o+, KQo
Raising range: 77+, A8s+, A9o+, KQo+
3-bet range: AA

Game is 1/3 and effective stacks are about $400.

I am reconstructing the hand as best as I can from memory, some of the ranks/suits might be off, but the general idea of the hand is captured.

Villain is UTG, Hero UTG+1.

Preflop: Villain limps, hero raises to $15 with :8d:7d . Everyone folds, villain calls. Pot is $34 going to flop.

Flop is :9h:7s:4d giving hero middle pair and backdoor straight draw. Hero bets $20, villain calls. There is now $74 in pot going to the turn. Edit: not sure if there was straight draw on this hand. Pertinent info at this point is flop is 9-high.

Turn is :3h . Hero bets $40 and villain check-raises to $140. It is now $100 for hero to call with $254 in pot.

Question 1: comments on hero's bet sizing till this point?
Question 2: At this point, should hero fold, call, or shove all-in?

Actual action was that hero tanked, knowing villain was capable to do this on flush draw, top pair or perhaps some sort of wonky bluff. I felt that the villain would have raised 77 or 99 pre-flop and would not check call a set of fours on the flop. Turn card should not have improved villain, but he would be capable of check-raising a turned flush draw. I felt that his range was capped at 9x, perhaps with a flush draw. I called the $100, assuming I had some showdown value against villain and would re-evaluate river.

Going to river there is $354 in pot with about with effective stacks of about $225 remaining.

River is :Ah, completing a flush draw. Villain says "OK", as if giving up and checks.

Question 3: Should hero shove all-in or check behind?

Hero checks behind and villain tables :Kd:9d and wins the hand.

In retrospect, here are some thoughts I had.

By checking the river I think villain is indicating he has showdown value. At the same time I was thinking I have showdown value. In retrospect I think the river card was a perfect bluffing card given the villain checked the river (if he had the flush he would have bet and it may have looked on the turn that I was contemplating what to do with a flush draw myself).

So as played by the river I think I should have shoved.

On the turn I feel I am still ahead of villain many times, and have 5 outs if I am behind. I feel if I shoved the turn I might get called if he was indeed semi-bluffing with a flush draw, so I think the turn decision was really between folding and calling.

What does the RCP brain trust think?


  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    Your bet sizing seems somewhat small. $20 on the flop seems ok, but I think the turn needs to be $50-$60 if you're really going to be betting.

    I don't think the turn card is a good card to continue barreling. It doesn't help your perceived range or hand. When he check-raises, I'd be inclined to believe him.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a cool hand to post, so there's that. You are killing me with the "not sure what the rest of the flop was" comment though! It matters.

    Positions, holdings, and runout make this interesting. You started by repping a very big hand, but this is not your board, and then you changed your mind. Villain has very wide limp call range. I wonder if this is a flop check, and am beginning to think it is. You are at the bottom of your isolation range yet have flopped real equity, backdoor stuff, and a blocker to a straight draw to charge: information available to you does not make a bet that enticing.

    Certainly on the turn the answer was never to turn your hand into a bluff catcher after making a near block bet on a card that isn't good for your range. This was loose.

    Therefore, I am leaning toward check flop to stay in sequence with your perceived range, (or at least bet turn harder as part of a maniacal three barrel plan against 9x). By staying logical and checking I will get to rep favorable turn or river cards without bloating the pot or inducing action I can't handle.

    At first I couldn't buy into ripping it in on the river, even if it would have worked because you just don't call with enough Ax on the turn, and will check back many pairs. You'd have to have barrelled XXhh exactly then called. However, now maybe I see the light: if you made the turn error of bet/calling, this is your out card for XXhh and you'd have to have planned it this way for your action to make sense. Very thin.

    Lastly, if villain is check raising TPGK against you, you need to think about your image.

  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
    Wow, thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm still thinking I should bet the flop due to the fact that I did connect relatively well. However I see your point; this player is more often than not going to lead the turn if I check the flop. Considering the villain is tricky and obviously had something by calling I'm thinking I should have checked the turn in order to avoid bloating the pot with the plan to call a river lead or perhaps value bet river.

    This player is one of the few that I can level myself with, as he is not afraid to fight back and apply pressure. I think back in the day he (as an amateur) played with some name pros in Vegas.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭

    HU, IP, as OR I generally cbet high card flops, low card flops and leave middle card connected flops(I consider this one) alone unless I have flopped big equity. I do this with prettty much my entire iso range

    So here I check the flop

    As played ;

    1. bigger preflop iso bet, 1/2 pot cbet standard on flop, 2/3 pot standard on turn for me
    2. fold. villain is on to you, suspects you don't have much
    3. bet the river. he tried something, apparently didn't work. just in case he has a 9 or overpair that he might lay down. it's thin but I'm not sure the 77 is going to fly

    "Lastly, if villain is check raising TPGK against you, you need to think about your image."

    Really important thought
  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
    Fwiw, my image is of a strong player....just this week a reg told me I was the best all-around player he knows (he used the term "beast") and i have heard similar from poker room staff. The floor actually told me he'd like to buy me dinner to pick my brain. I don't mean this as a brag (that would be plain obnoxious) nor do I believe it because I know I make huge blunders at times in my game. The crux of this hand was a dynamic between me and a thinking (albeit loose) player at this game. I would have folded the turn to any other player in the game.

    This thread has given me insight in my battles with this player in the future.

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