Smashing the flop with junk....

Patrick LawlerPatrick Lawler Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
Playing £1/£1 casino cash, £150 behind with :Ks:4c in the SB.

The £2 straddle is in and there are 4 limpers to me, I complete for the extra £1 (getting 12/1 on the call) and so does the BB. UTG checks his option. Right, is this just a call with any two? Seems like the odds just to see the flop are crazy.

:Kd:Kh:Jh

BOOM! That's how to hit a flop. I check first to act with the intention of c/r any bet but it checks round...

:2s

I lead out for £12, UTG calls and the rest fold. I don't have a massive amount of info on this guy at the time but he was playing a lot of pots so assumed he's quite loose.

:9s

I lead again for £21, UTG tanks and raises to £65. I tank and decide there is a lot he could be playing that looks strong after the checked flop and call.

Villain tables :Qs:Tc for the rivered straight :( sigh...

Should I have taken a more aggressive line on the flop? I feels like a SB open on this flop is going to fold out the whole table 90% of the time and the remaining 10% I'm always beaten, the check keeps a lot of worse hands and bluffs in the opponents ranges.

As played is the river always a call here?

Thoughts?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    This is not a strategic completion preflop. The straddle is going to have straddle brain and raise half the time, the BB is incentivized to raise, and every time you do see it for a pound you are in the worst position in poker with trash.

    As played the lead or x/r is often best decided relative to how you know these guys play. If they bet/call a lot, it's the right play. Leading is better in a passive game, which this might be, based on a few things going on here.

    I guess pay that man his money now. You have some chops and heart bluffs to win against. Fold to nits.
  • blasterblaster Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    This is why you don't play K4 off. If you have quantum leaped into this spot i agree with what persuadeo has to say, but save yourself the pain and let it go pre. So often in these forums i see players try to analyze tricky spots, and what they should do when scenarios , but the game at lower stakes isn't anywhere near that complicated. Simple answer to your question is you should never have been involved to begin with.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1 dont post results
    #2 lead flop (check raise is bad idea for multiple reasons)
    #3 Fold river vs a raise. (what are you beating that he is raising with?)

    He never raises river with Jx or missed flush draw. He either has a better K, full house, or straight.

    Completing preflop is kinda whatever as long as you can get away from the hand. For example if it comes K93, you bet get 2 callers, are you done with the hand on the turn?
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Completing from the SB has been mathematically solved. It goes something like this;
    Every 5 hour session you will get approx 15 SB opportunities. Don't complete 10 of them. Play 5 times a week. Play 50 weeks

    $10x5x50=$2500 (take someone to Punta Cana)

    This is based on a very important poker principle:
    Bad hands are bad hands. Odds do not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

    One example of folding being +EV
  • philby20philby20 Red Chipper Posts: 189 ✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    Completing from the SB has been mathematically solved. It goes something like this;
    Every 5 hour session you will get approx 15 SB opportunities. Don't complete 10 of them. Play 5 times a week. Play 50 weeks

    $10x5x50=$2500 (take someone to Punta Cana)

    This is based on a very important poker principle:
    Bad hands are bad hands. Odds do not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

    One example of folding being +EV

    haha love this
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Ed Miller wrote an article on the flawed logic of thinking you can play bad hands just because you're getting great odds on the call preflop.
  • Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    To answer your question It depends on the makeup of your opponents. If your at a table with loose bad players who would call you with a lot of worse hands then by all means bet. If you find yourself against tight solids that would only call with a range thats ahead of you than check it.
  • Ranceg29Ranceg29 Red Chipper Posts: 145 ✭✭
    Thes guys act like they've never played K4 out of the SB for $1 before.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    I personally like a lead out with the king, especially considering all the straight and flush draw. Slow playing trips is so popular at lower limits that it makes a lead out almost more deceptive plus u r able to get more value. Checking in this spot in particular runs the risk of giving a free card when there are a ton straight draws out there considering all the ppl in the hand, not to mention the hearts. A lot more value to leading out here imo. I pry lead pot sized here.
    There are bad players at that limit so I guess I would need more info on villain to make an assessment of the river call. If he has been showing weird bluffs and overvaluing hands on the river, I would pry call. If he is a thinking player that realizes there is a good shot I have a king, I fold.
  • jimbo123jimbo123 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Fold pre as everyone else suggested for sure.

    I like checking the flop to underrep your hand as leading out looks really strong here. Even UK fish will fold a J when you just lead out here into 6 players.

    I think considering check raising is potentially a huge leak - although you have trips uou still dont exactly have a monster and lose to all other Kx. This board really isnt that much different to a KJ3hhx board say.

    Like you i def bet the river, sizing is good. It is 100% a bet fold though, fish love to limp these offsuit broadway type hands and theres 16 combos of the effective nuts he can have. Also note that sometimes you might be calling for a chop! Also the nature of the board run out is such that few people are going to try to bluff you off a king!
  • Patrick LawlerPatrick Lawler Red Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Thanks people!

    i think this can all be summarised with don't call with crap even if you're getting the odds....

    Now that I think it over and read through your comments I feel that the players at this level are probably too sticky to be able to play weak hands like this even if it is amazingly cheap.

    But, as played I think a better move may have been to lead flop and then lead again on the turn if none of the draws complete. If i get any calls on the turn then shut down on the river and hope for the best.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ranceg29 wrote: »
    Thes guys act like they've never played K4 out of the SB for $1 before.

    Exactly the opposite: they are the ones who've learned their lesson.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    @persuadeo - Amen brother

    I told my wife the other day:

    "Honey, No Punta Cana this year because I'm going to go back to playing all kinds of shit hands for $1-$3..... it's OK I'm getting great pot odds"

    My Boss instructed me that I will continue completing the SB rarely

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