bluffing with blockers

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
Local Casino at a newer $1/2 game that just opened up where the minimum open is $5, so creates some bigger pots and more action.

Preflop: 5 way ($5 each)

Flop ($25) :Ad:2d:2h
SB: check
BB: check
MP: check
Hero CO: Bet $15
BU / SB/ BB/ all fold
MP: calls $15

Turn ($55) :Ad:2d:2h:6d
MP: checks
Hero: checks whole cards ( :Qh:Jc ): Checks

River ($55) :Ad:2d:2h:6d:Kd
MP: bets $20
Hero: raises to $55 after about 10 seconds

My read is that he had weak Ace with a small diamond or maybe no diamond at all. Could also have some type of baby flush, but I rule out Anything higher then JdTd as most of those hands would raise preflop. Indian guy in his 40s if that means anything. My original raise sizing I wanted to make it was $65, but I wanted my raise to SCREAM VALUE!!

Thoughts / criticisms?

Comments

  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    First I don't think you should play QJ like this pre flop I think a raise is in order to isolate. This also seems kind of spewy in my experience Indian guys don't really like to fold. And the way it played out I doubt he has any A and if he does and likes to get sticky the board is now two pair with a K kicker. Regardless of the outcome of this hand I can't see it being profitable in the long run. Unless the player you are up against is a nit. And you should increase your bet size here. im also confused about the title of this hand bluffing with blockers?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,069 -
    +1 to @GabeyJ (minus the stereotype on Indians)
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  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    What are you blocking with qj?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,867 -
    Players don't come to the casino to bet-fold to min-raises on the river getting about 4:1 for "only $35"

    You are choosing to bluff with this holding. What logic did you use to pick this holding to bluff with? Applying that same logic what other hands would you choose to play this way -and name one hand you would play this way but fold the river.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
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  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Austin wrote: »
    My read is that he had weak Ace with a small diamond or maybe no diamond at all. Could also have some type of baby flush, but I rule out Anything higher then JdTd as most of those hands would raise preflop.
    Weak ace doesn't really matter with a paired board and a K, every ace is at least playing AA22K, which would probably increase calls. I'm not a fan of small raises, because I don't use them with my value range, but if you play small raises as both value aND bluff balanced, I guess it's not too bad.

    5 way to the flop, paired board with 2 diamonds, I think I'd want a little more than a backdoor SD as what I can showdown at the end of the hand.

    After V bets 20 on the river, I'm not sure what you are getting to fold besides his bluffs. If v's bet is a value bet, what value hand would he fold after this small raise?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think people calling with 4 diamonds on the board because they have two pair is pretty profitable table and interested where you all play if that is the norm. I was just referring to me having QJ in my hand making it less likely he has a Qd or Jd in his hand. I understand bigger sizing if you all are really getting people to call you with two pair on a 4 flush board.

    Anyways villain ended up have 4d5h and called after about 90 seconds. Only hands people really raise here are Qd or full house in my experience. My raise was because i knew he had a weak holding.

    Also disagree with isolating QJ. At the games i play in its much better to get value post flop then play a inflatted pot and lower the SBR when you flop 2nd pair or top pair weak kicker majority of the time.

    For example say 2 limpers and i make it $20 i am still likely to play a bloated pot 4 ways ($80) with a marginal holding and sbr of like 2.5. Wouldn't call that a great play.

    I think a raise to $75 would be better here for the hand i played and will use that next time.. Something between 3-4x the donk bets raise. I just feel smaller sizing works well cause people don't want to get milked.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I think people calling with 4 diamonds on the board because they have two pair is pretty profitable table and interested where you all play if that is the norm. I was just referring to me having QJ in my hand making it less likely he has a Qd or Jd in his hand. I understand bigger sizing if you all are really getting people to call you with two pair on a 4 flush board.

    The thing is, I don't believe many villains are value betting 2p on the river. What is the weakest hand you think V is value betting on the river? And is a small raise ever going to get that value bet to fold?
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    Also since you have the non Q and J of d it's more likely they may have it not less since you have zero blockers. And I strongly strongly disagree with your views on isolation find the pain threshold make people fear and hate you when you raise. I understand it's difficult to play multiway pots. I sometimes get called 4 ways for 30$ opens at my 1-2 games but if you have post flop edge and pick the right boards to attack it will be a very profitable night. If it goes that multiway their hand strength is drastically decreased as well. Wouldn't you rather out play weak players who limp call 20 post flop and play it straight forward? Then in a limped pot situation? Now I do think the limping can sometimes be a useful tool but not really with QJoff suit it's really not strong to limp and call a raise with
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Austin wrote: »
    I think people calling with 4 diamonds on the board because they have two pair is pretty profitable table

    Not if you're bluffing :)
    Austin wrote: »
    I was just referring to me having QJ in my hand making it less likely he has a Qd or Jd in his hand.

    This isn't how blockers work. It's actually more likely he has the :Qd or :Jd in his hand if you don't have it in yours. You're thinking specific cards rather than generic cards. For example, if you have any AA in your hand, it's (sometimes) less likely he has any A in his hand (depending on the action of course.) But if you have the :Ah in your hand, it's more likely he has the :Ad specifically in his hand. Blockers relates more to combinatorics than specific cards.
    Austin wrote: »
    My raise was because i knew he had a weak holding.

    Two questions. How good of a player do you think your opponent was? How do you know he was weak as opposed to passive/slowplaying?
    Austin wrote: »
    Also disagree with isolating QJ. At the games i play in its much better to get value post flop then play a inflatted pot and lower the SBR when you flop 2nd pair or top pair weak kicker majority of the time.

    Limping QJ here isn't the worst play in the world. That play is reserved for bluffing calling stations, lol. Sorry, just kidding, but seriously I do get your point. But on the other hand it can often be easier to play 2nd pair for a larger SPR heads up than for a smaller SPR multiway.
    Austin wrote: »
    For example say 2 limpers and i make it $20 i am still likely to play a bloated pot 4 ways ($80) with a marginal holding and sbr of like 2.5. Wouldn't call that a great play.

    Right, but that's not isolating, that's just bloating a pot with a marginal holding.
    Austin wrote: »
    I think a raise to $75 would be better here for the hand i played and will use that next time.. Something between 3-4x the donk bets raise. I just feel smaller sizing works well cause people don't want to get milked.

    Donk bets raise? Anyway, you just got called by a 5 high flush on a paired board when you raised the river, so that's something to think about.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Regarding the $20 iso amount: you are totally correct that's not going to work with the $5 bring in. You need to go much higher.

    I would use a minimum of $25, add $5 for each caller and then maybe throw extra $5-$10 for good measure.

    Let's find out who wants to play OOP for $30-$45. Adjust your range to the table and/or villains who have called or are yet to act.

    The SPR is low which actually makes many of the hands pretty easy to play.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My most recent session I immediately moved seats to two players who were isolating big and seemed to have pretty wide ranges. They were making it $20 after 1 limper, $25 after 2 limpers etc. One of them was just a 2/5 regular, but dropped down a level because he was losing too much at 2/5. Other guy seemed like he knew what he was doing, but a little laggy I think based on table dynamics to be too profitable.

    This session seemed to be very loose where they would isolate to $25 after 2 impers and get 4 way action almost every time. With a $200 max buyin ($1/2/2 with forced open of $5) it create a SBR of 2 almost every hand and I would rather not risk my stack every other hand unless I have a very large bankroll. My view has always been the bigger the raise preflop the tighter my range needs to be because pot is always bloated, so I can just player super tight and still have a winning session without "working" too hard.

    My blockers to Qd and Jd is off a little on my understanding. If he is raising AJ and AQ preflop though then he cannot have Qd or Jd here. I am trying to figure out a way to explain this a little better on why I thought he had a low diamond.

    Preflop Range: super wide (based on results), but in real time unknown as it was too short of a sample.

    Flop range: What is is checking calling with? If he is betting AT+ on that flop and flush draws some of the time. I believe that would leave him with some baby flushes, and A9-A3.

    River: his continue range after the flop bet is:
    A9-A3, T9d - 54d

    He doesn't have and KdQc type hands because all those hands fold and I believe any QdJd, JdTd are likely to bet flop majority of the time.

    With his small donk bet $20 into $55 what hands can he call us with in general? This is based on unknowns and general play as we have zero history against each other. He is obviously making a blocker bet in my opinion saying he has say 9d or Td in his hand in general, but doesn't want to face a large bet if he checks. Thats my general assumption. The question becomes am I raising here with worse then Td (top of his range) more then ($35 / $130) 27% of the time. In general I really doubt people are bluffing here that high of a percentage for his call to be profitable.

    All the other advise about a $5 open and raising to $40 to find the pain thresh hold I really appreciate that and will work on my big isolations. I would just prefer a tighter range something like AT+, KQ+, 99+ to do this type of isolation with, so its a little easier to play for value post flop.

    I will work on my isolations, use of "blockers," and comfort level with lower SBRs with marginal holdings. This is the main reason why I have not had many $1,000+ sessions over my career. I've had a few but in general its very ABC tight / some what passive small ball strategy that leads me to a consistent win rate about 85% and $100-$200 average profit per session and a low hourly rate around $15.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    Is there any other 1/2 game you can play at your casino? This game is basically a 2/5 that you can only min buy into which creates a weird dynamic
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    You talk about his call not being profitable which is correct it won't be. But live players don't think as well as online players and they surely don't just like to fold to min raises. And this post is mostly about your play. And why it is not profitable In the long run to take a bluff line like this. It will end up costing you especially at lower stakes. I have personally been in this type of situation in the past using much bigger sizes and they just don't get the folds required unthinking players just don't like to fold flushes. I mean how often do you have a flush you just can't fold it right?
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    Austin wrote: »
    My view has always been the bigger the raise preflop the tighter my range needs to be because pot is always bloated, so I can just player super tight and still have a winning session without "working" too hard.
    If you think they have wider ranges, it would over simplify it to just play tighter. You would want to tighten your overall continuing range, but widen the 3b range IMO. It will put you in some small SPR spots, where you're going to have to stack off lighter than you'd prefer I'm guessing. Just keep in mind that if you have the range advantage, it will still be correct
    Austin wrote: »
    My blockers to Qd and Jd is off a little on my understanding. If he is raising AJ and AQ preflop though then he cannot have Qd or Jd here. I am trying to figure out a way to explain this a little better on why I thought he had a low diamond.
    This is more board combo blockers than you having blockers. Usually, a blocker bluff would be representing the nut flush, with only 3c on the board and the naked Ac in your hand. You know where the Ac isn't, so you can make a huge bet knowing that the best flush they could call with is not the nuts. With a 4 flush on the board, this is more a villains range construction bluff.

    Most 1-2 players aren't coming to the casino to fold flushes. Not saying the opportunity won't come up, but know thy enemy.

    ...I'll be back to take a look at the range analysis in a bit, but range analysis 5 ways can be wonky
  • mdw72mdw72 Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    I've bee following this string for the last couple of days and GabyJ kind of said it in his initial response but I will go one further. You shouldn't have played the hand. QJ is too weak of a hand. You should have mucked and moved on. They are connected and they are big cards but QJ is so easily dominated and without them being suited its not worth playing. If it was suited then I would suggest a raise to isolate and possibly to get the button to fold so you have the effective button. But that is if they were suited.

    You played it pretty weak from start to finish. Limped pre flop, only 15 into a multiway 25 dollar pot, (not exactly staking a serious claim to the pot IMO), checked the turn (capping your range), then making a half hearted bluff on river. Your read on the river was good Villain didn't have a flush he was proud of but your bluff raise didn't put much pressure on him.

    Your bluff was what I call a pure cookie jar bluff. You had nothing through the whole hand and certainly have nothing when Villain bets the river. So your bluff shouldn't "scream value" it should scream "call or raise at your own risk." You want him to worry that if he raises you are coming back over the top and you want to help him realize he's beat and his little flush is no good. That said if he calls or raises you got your hand caught in the cookie jar and you fold. At the very least you get a little advertisement as some one who's big bets could be a bluff. Which in turn should get your actual value bets called just a bit more.

    Please don't take this the wrong way and I don't want to seem like a nit picker but its not SBR its SPR (Stack to Pot Ratio). Also yes your conception of blockers is a bit off. Blockers are cards in your hand coupled with the same card on the board. For instance the Ace of diamonds on the flop, if you had AJ instead of QJ the Ace in your hand coupled with the Ace on the board constitutes a blocker. It simply because you can account for two of the Aces and can definitively take all combos with those two aces out of any range you assign to your opponents. Having a card in your hand doesn't affect the likelihood of any other card being in someone else's hand or not.

    In short you played a hand you shouldn't have. To help keep from doing that I suggest adopting the never limp pre-flop strategy. It has many advantages but one is it will make you think "is this hand worth a raise?"
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    It is true that OP's use of card removal information was not the usual way players use "blockers", but it is a valid if thin one. He's made an inference that some broadway hands are not out there with big diamonds because he holds some of their typical accompanying cards. This is can be a separate question from whether he played the hand well or not.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    QJ is a playable hand in the CO with no raise in front of you even it is unsuited. If most people check their database QJo should show up profitable in the CO. Your range would be so damn tight if your not playing these hands.

    The rest of what you said i can't disagree with.

    I'm trying to think of a range you play if your folding QJ in co.

    AT, QK, and 22+? Limits the number of hands you can bluff with post flop.

    Sbr was just stuck in my head because its my sports betting forum. Didn't even notice i typed that.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    My blockers to Qd and Jd is off a little on my understanding. If he is raising AJ and AQ preflop though then he cannot have Qd or Jd here.

    Why not? It does take a few hands out of his range but the effect is very minimal to non-existent vis-a-vis diamonds. It actually looks to me like he has a good diamond in his hand, and as opposed to saying you're blocking the :Qd and :Jd, if anything I'd say it's more likely he has those cards than a smaller diamond, since:
    - he paid money to see a flop, and seeing a flop is more likely with higher cards than lower cards
    - he led out onto a board with 4 diamonds on it on the river, which tends to project some strength if taken at face value. Therefore it would tend to be more likely that he has a high diamond than a low diamond.

    The effect of the first point is relatively small. The effect of the second point is stronger, however if you're looking for clues earlier in the hand than the river the effect is smaller. All in all, I'd say blockers or card removal is a virtually non-existent effect in this hand.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm trying to think of a range you play if your folding QJ in co.

    AT, QK, and 22+? Limits the number of hands you can bluff with post flop.

    Plenty of suited connectors and even suited one gappers as well in that range. Depends on how you and your opponents play postflop. I don't have a problem playing QJo in this spot, although the low stack sizes along with the high bring in makes this sort of hand one of the first to go as I customized my range for the game.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do you value 87s higher then QJ? My thinking behind this is that qj hits more top pairs and more hands you can get it all in with given the lowe spr. Do i feel comfortable with it? Hell no. But it does make more sense to me. Now if i were at a deeper game 87s would be easier to play as you either hit a monster in disguise or easily get away from the hand.

    Onto range elimination. If you look at just the river when a person leads out onto a four diamond board then yes it seems like in general they have a good diamond. However, if you start from the begining preflop and flop you can remove a lot of high diamonds from his range.

    Preflop saying he is raising AT+, KQs,
    Flop he is leading his strong flush draws KdXd, maybe a hand like QdJd leads as well.

    Taking the fact that he check called the flop would classify his hand as weak to baby flush draws, weak aces, and rare occasions of A2 for a flop monster.

    Turn doesn't mean anything to me in terms of him making a flush or not because he didn't have initiative in the hand and was my first mistake of capping my range when i checked back as someone pointed out.

    Given all this information what good diamonds can he actually have? He is not calling flop with two random broadsways that have 1 diamond in them, he is raising all his big aces preflop so that discounts a ton of Ax+broadway diamond, unless he is the type of player to limp big aces, not bet TP+ good kicker on the flop... There are almost no good diamond in his range. If he is playing hands like Jd3d or kxdd, then i can't eliminate it from his range. I would only be able to eliminate a general range given small sample size. I could only eliminate some kd or Qd based on his small bet size on the river if he is playing weak kings and queens. Even then live players don't pay enough attention to pot size so he may not realize how small his bet actually was.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Do you value 87s higher then QJ?

    Depends on the flop :-) They do tend to be live cards as opposed to QJ where you don't know if you're dominated or not.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    IMO 87s and QJ , when raised IP for isolation, are the same hand. The texture of the flop will determine the Cbet, turn barrel etc.

    Whatever hand you have is going to miss the flop 70%. Other than blockers, figuring out your bluff lines has little to do with your holdings
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    IMO 87s and QJ , when raised IP for isolation, are the same hand. The texture of the flop will determine the Cbet, turn barrel etc.

    Whatever hand you have is going to miss the flop 70%. Other than blockers, figuring out your bluff lines has little to do with your holdings

    With $200 buy in and $5 forced open its like a shallow stack 2/3/5 game which creates a low SPR which which is why i prefer QJ over 87s. QJ has more top pair potential against players who dont like to fold.

    I guess it also depends on player types. For example I would prefer to isolate a tight player with 87s and a loose player with QJ. Not sure if i need to state reason behind this other than the obvious.

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