Way ahead/ way behind logic what do u do here?

bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
edited March 2016 in Live Poker Hands
Was playing a 2/5 no cap. never played at this location or a 2/5 with no cap. Have had a great start to the year and had someone stake me for half in this game....wanted to get my feet wet. Game had 3 players that play pro at 5/10 but play this no cap game on the reg, myself and then the rest of the table that was quite weak....An interesting mix. The 3 pros were no doubt better than me. I would say 1 other player was about at my level and 4 players were real bad. The hand in question was vs the best player at the table.

Villain has about 2700 to start the hand and hero has 750

Villain opens for 25 from mid postiiton

I decide to flat on the button with :As:Kh would have 3 bet from the blinds.

Big blind comes along

Pot is 77

Flop: :Ac:7h:7d

Checks around to me. I elect to check. With that dry of a board and a check by razer i figure I am way ahead/way behind and am only looking for two streets of value due to the chance that bb or razer has 7 (solid logic?)

Turn: :Ts

Bb: check
Villain: bets 65

Hero: call. Pot 207
Not folding here ever as my hand is well disguised and there is a good chance he is just stealing with no one showing any interest on the flop

River: :3d

Villian bets 200

Now I am worried bc his range is so polarized, correct? He either has a 7, a boat or a bluff and I only need to be right 1 out of 3 times to break even....

Thoughts on my thought process on all streets and his thinking with a hand or a bluff would be greatly appreciated...... I will tell u the outcome :) guessing hands might be fun too
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Comments

  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Passive line makes it hard to define his range but i think you nailed it. 89s, TT, AT, 87s, maybe some broadways. Without a doubt i think he made a good bet but leaning towards call unless you never seen him bluff. I played a hand like this once and ran into quads. I doubt he has quads since he bet pretty big on turn though. Good hand post and discussion i think.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Personally, I don't like your logic. Here's why:
    You flop top/top and you're thinking you only want to extract 2 streets of action!
    What the...?
    You're thinking that V only has 7X or nothing... what about AQ, AJ, AT, etc. etc.?
    What about JJ, QQ or KK?
    Wouldn't V call at least one bet on the flop?
    The best players in my room would.

    From my perspective - checking only makes things harder for you.
    Because the turn can bring something that helps him and now you don't know if the flop helped, the turn did, or all of it.
    Plus, because you're probably never folding - you're giving V a free shot at your stack by out-flopping/turning you...
    had you called with AA and flopped a boat... then slow-playing might be okay.

    Here's some more food for thought:
    Would you ever call pre-flop with any other hand other than AK?
    Would you ever bet the flop on a draw, semi-bluff or bluff?
    I would.

    Depending on your image - V might be scared that you're only calling with the top of your range. If that's the case, I want to exploit that and make him fold as often as possible. By checking and then check/calling - you become unbalanced.

    If you had called with 99 - are you really checking back the flop?

    Now if you were checking to induce a bluff - that's fine. But it sounds more like you were hoping to let the BB or V catch up. I understand this notion when you flop the top pair that won't be changing (i.e., A or K). But against two players - it's often a recipe for disaster.

    Also, since V is a reg in the room - you got to start thinking long-term about him.
    He's going to remember what hands you played in position and how you played them.
    He'll remember your bet sizing, timing tells and even how you threw out the chips.
    He's building a database on how your play - and if you only play fit-or-fold, you might as well move back down to 1/3 or avoid a table with him on it.

    I don't know what your button-calling range is ... but it needs to be a lot more than just AK. And since it probably is, you need show more aggression on most flops whenever it's checked to you. Even if you have the best hand!

    As played - I'd call. But I think you missed the chance to make a lot more money.
    You could have bet 50 on the flop. If V calls, 125 on turn. And if V calls, 250 on river.
    Good players will often call with all kinds of hands to try and hit or bluff you by the river. They will often check/raise with very big hands allowing you to bet/fold profitably.

    anyway - it's my 2¢. hope it makes sense. Just got home from a 12-hour session and was unwinding by surfing the net. If you think this post is garbage... just ignore it.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    Why would you choose to play a no cap 2/5 game and not buy in for at least 250bb? And I don't agree with your logic I think pre flop is where this hand started going down hill
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    With your stack size its an auto 3b pre. Keep in mind you are also up against a player who has a skill edge on you. This means you are giving him a free chance to outplay you post. Also, when you 3b, BB almost always folds, which clears up a ton of equity hands effectively removing any semblance of 7x from either players range. by calling you allow bb to share you ability to rep middling boards when you have a hand that doesnt necessarily want multiway action.

    By 3b, Now theres almost 200 in the middle with 600 back and you can expect he will committ his stack with any Ax he calls your 3b with.

    Also, when you check flop youve capped your range at 1 pair, unless youre checking back 7x. Once he checks this board (without reads im thinking he bets this board a majority of the time) he relinquishes a lot of his range advantage and puts you in the drivers seat. You got what you wanted by just flatting AK. If he catches you not taking advantage of this he now knows he can actualize equity all night and can put you in hell spots when you have 1 pair hands.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the feedback is a bit harsh. It seems what everyone is saying assumes hero would play this hand the same way every time, and I doubt that's true. I think hero's line is OK as one way to play this hand, although you can't do this every time.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Jeff while i agree that the line he took can be fine, but i think the logic he used to come to his conclusion might need some tweaking.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    Sometimes tough love is the best love
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    Interesting feedback. I ended up calling And villain showed Kj. I think after I check the flop, I can never fold here unless villain and bb get crazy vs each other as part of my reasoning was I was trying to induce a bluff and there is a good chance he is bluffing here. I checked mainly for 3 reasons a. Induce a bluff as I observed villain was quite aggressive b. I felt it was a two street value hand for the most part considering it went 3 way and bb was lose, I would like to here more discussion on this thought. I realize it is more of a three street value hand when villains have a lot of aces in their range, but I did not see that as very likely once villain checked the flop. No way I am getting 3 streets vs this guy if he has jj qq kk. I just completely disagree with that. I do like how u explained that I am capped here, as I should be betting my 7s but can u elaborate on how that affects the hand? I'd it that bad to be capped considering the line I am taking?

    I rarely ever play ak and it is in no way standard and maybe I am wrong but part of the reason I called was also deception value as i am going to be seeing him around and I do not play all hands passively vs him, later in the session I 3 bet him with a7s.

    The vast majorty of players that play 1/2 and 2/5 here are not thinking players and taking standard lines is almost always best in terms of value. Right now I am in between 1/2 and 2/5 in terms of roll and just wanted to take a shot plus someone bought have my action so it's not at all a big risk for me. I really don't think it's that bad that i sat at this game. The normal 1/2 and 2/5 games are quite bad and I really learned a ton watching and playing with those guys. I also don't really think I was a big dog in this game as the other players at the table were not very good and most were siting with between 500 and 1000.I learned more in 4 hours here than I have in quite some time.

    Another question: what is villains thought process here? What does harm have me on? Lots of 10s I am guessing....
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
    kagey wrote: »
    Personally, I don't like your logic. Here's why:
    You flop top/top and you're thinking you only want to extract 2 streets of action!
    What the...?
    You're thinking that V only has 7X or nothing... what about AQ, AJ, AT, etc. etc.?
    What about JJ, QQ or KK?
    Wouldn't V call at least one bet on the flop?
    The best players in my room would.

    From my perspective - checking only makes things harder for you.
    Because the turn can bring something that helps him and now you don't know if the flop helped, the turn did, or all of it.
    Plus, because you're probably never folding - you're giving V a free shot at your stack by out-flopping/turning you...
    had you called with AA and flopped a boat... then slow-playing might be okay.

    Here's some more food for thought:
    Would you ever call pre-flop with any other hand other than AK?
    Would you ever bet the flop on a draw, semi-bluff or bluff?
    I would.

    Depending on your image - V might be scared that you're only calling with the top of your range. If that's the case, I want to exploit that and make him fold as often as possible. By checking and then check/calling - you become unbalanced.

    If you had called with 99 - are you really checking back the flop?

    Now if you were checking to induce a bluff - that's fine. But it sounds more like you were hoping to let the BB or V catch up. I understand this notion when you flop the top pair that won't be changing (i.e., A or K). But against two players - it's often a recipe for disaster.

    Also, since V is a reg in the room - you got to start thinking long-term about him.
    He's going to remember what hands you played in position and how you played them.
    He'll remember your bet sizing, timing tells and even how you threw out the chips.
    He's building a database on how your play - and if you only play fit-or-fold, you might as well move back down to 1/3 or avoid a table with him on it.

    I don't know what your button-calling range is ... but it needs to be a lot more than just AK. And since it probably is, you need show more aggression on most flops whenever it's checked to you. Even if you have the best hand!

    As played - I'd call. But I think you missed the chance to make a lot more money.
    You could have bet 50 on the flop. If V calls, 125 on turn. And if V calls, 250 on river.
    Good players will often call with all kinds of hands to try and hit or bluff you by the river. They will often check/raise with very big hands allowing you to bet/fold profitably.

    anyway - it's my 2¢. hope it makes sense. Just got home from a 12-hour session and was unwinding by surfing the net. If you think this post is garbage... just ignore it.




  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
    Thank U for the .02. Lots of valuable info. Overall vs both ranges and it being a 3 way pot, I think if I bet 3 times and I getting called I am behind A good chunk of the time. Had I 3 bet and it's just the two of us, I would agree, but for the line I took, vs both their ranges I don't think I am sitting pretty betting 3 streets. deception value vs. a good player plus inducing a bluff plus the fact that I didn't think it was a 3 street value hand vs two players I guess is why I checked....right or wrong.


    Someone had said something about my stack size making it an automatic three bet. Can u elaborate? Thank u!
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    bigpaps wrote: »
    Someone had said something about my stack size making it an automatic three bet. Can u elaborate? Thank u!
    a couple of things I've found about 2/5. Since it's the biggest game in our room - it's frequented by the best players. And the best players bluff. A lot. Since aggression is key - they often 3-bet light as well.

    Forcing your opponent to go on the defense is often good poker because if forces them to make mistakes that the normally wouldn't... call when they should fold or fold when they should call. Our 2/5 game is much less of a game of out-flopping others as it is a game of playing the other players' hand. This is the basis of why your logic of being WA/WB is flawed against good players. They are often calling/betting to represent whatever they can to push you off your hand. To put you to the test.

    That said - what's your 3-betting range? KK? AA? sometimes QQ?
    Think about this... that's only 18 combos of hands. (out of 1325... ish) Makes it quite easy for someone to play against you, no? If you add all combos of AK... now you've got 34 hands. A good selection... but still, very staid and predictable. To be balanced, you might want to include some others... maybe JTs, A4s, K6s... or what have you. Right?
    That way if your Vs always fold to your 3-bet - they are making a mistake.
    I think this is where the idea where AK should automatically be a 3-bet pre. It's so strong that just calling causes you to miss an opportunity to get value against weaker hands. And it makes you easier to play against.

    This is actually a good hand for you to examine if you're truly ready for 2/5. The game's typically not about catching cards. And if you're only playing that style, I'm pretty sure it's a losing/break-even strategy.

    RE: stack sizes.
    Since you've got 750 and V's got you covered - when you've got a premium hand - you should be looking to double thru him, not just get 2 streets of value. Let's pretend:
    V makes it 25. You make it 75. He calls.
    Pot is 150-ish.
    He checks. You bet 100. He calls.
    Pot is now 350-ish.
    Turn - he checks, you bet 225-265. He calls.
    Pot is now 800 to 880-ish.
    Now you've got around 350-ish left in your stack... a perfect shove/ double up stack for the river. Giving V more than 3:1 on his money...
    A good V will put you on a range of hands and often call with most Aces, and Tx hands.

    I once had a coach tell me to always play my premiums as if my opponent has a big hand too. In this case, as if V has AQ or AJ. If they fold, whatever. But if they call, then cha-ching. Also, this helps with your image when you want to bluff - like V did - and you're forcing your opponent to think he's WA/WB when in fact he's so WA... he should already be deciding whether or not to buy that new gadget from the Sharper Image.

    Don't take this as "I'm better than you" advice... I've had to go thru this transition as well... and am still morphing (or trying to) into a better player. I understand your logic because I used to use it too. In some rooms, 2/5 are just richer 1/3 players. But in most rooms, 2/5 players different animals that push the skill edge to prevent luck from skewing their win-rate. If you're going to sit at their table, you're going to need to think about the game differently. Avoid trapping. Bet your hand. Semi-bluff and bluff more.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
    I guess one of my points is, AK is in my 3 betting range. I rarely flat AK in this spot, I feel as though u r taking Ak out of my 3 bet range when it is not. My 3 bet range is much more than 18 combos, for instance later in the day I 3 bet him with a7s and got a fold. Just bc I didn't 3 bet it once does not mean it is my standard play and does not take it out of my range, right? Or am I thinking wrong here? I also feel my call does have deception value and makes my range tricky vs a good player, which has value in and of itself especially if I am going to see more out of him. Me tabling AK there is going to give him a lot to think about.

    Your post gives me a lot to think about and I appreciate it. I def agree that 3 betting should be the standard play here.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bigpaps wrote: »
    Just bc I didn't 3 bet it once does not mean it is my standard play and does not take it out of my range, right? Or am I thinking wrong here?

    there's nothing wrong with flatting - or even folding AK based on reads on your opponents/stack sizes/ yada, yada, yada.
    Since we know nothing about your game and you presented a hand where you didn't 3-bet, we offered your flat as a possible "mistake."

    remember, your post didn't say that why you flatted. You just said:
    bigpaps wrote: »
    I decide to flat on the button with :As:Kh would have 3 bet from the blinds.

    So it sounded as if your standard play was to flat in all positions except from the blinds.
    smooth calling for deception isn't bad - if you can get away from the hand when you know your beat. In this case, it's very easy for you to get owned had V or BB been playing 76, 87 or TT because you have no idea where you're at in the hand.

    3-betting is a more standard line. Against good players - I prefer to be the aggressor so I have fold-equity. But adjusting your play isn't horrible if you have a reason for it. I've smooth-called with KK & AA before for specific reasons. So, you're thinking isn't wrong to flat.

    But your desire to trap a good, thinking player will get you in trouble in the future. Had you raised the river for value - then you would have shown that you're playing to trap and once you've trapped - you're ready to make money. But instead, by the end of the hand - your post seemed to indicate that you were seeing monsters under the bed (MUBs) and thinking that you're WA or WB. (A very good reason why you don't want to trap or be tricky.)

    Don't worry about being tricky. Practice on being good. Tricky will come later when you get into leveling wars. For now, I'd focus on playing the basics well.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
    Thank u for the feedback, really good advice and I should have gave more insight as to my thinking and that this play is in no way standard for me. I agree as a general rule I should not be getting tricky vs someone with a skill edge. Getting past the flat call:

    I wouldn't say it was my desire to trap, more or less I was thinking:

    I am in a way ahead way behind situation starting on the flop. There r so few cards that help improve either players range. If someone has an ace, 3 outs (if kick below 7, which is very possible here drawing dead) if someone has a pp, 2 outs.....or I am crushed. It is also very possible both players are essentially drawing dead.

    When watching videos etc, it seems way ahead/ way behind spots such as this can be good times to check back bc it controls the pot when u r crushed, plus when ahead it opens villains calling range on the turn and u can induce a bluff.....I am thinking of way ahead way behind spots completely wrong here?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, yes if you 3 bet then you have a good stack size for getting it all in eventually, but on the other hand if you're playing for 2 streets of value and just flatting pre, then you're taking a different line. So to a certain extent is a self-fulfulling prophecy - if you 3 bet, there's no sense in being passive with it, but by just calling you can play a smaller pot.

    I'm not sure how many people disagree with me here, but I think it's important to play the hand as hero played it sometimes simply for balance. I don't see anything wrong with hero's thought process as he's described it, again as long as he plays the hand differently at other times.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    So if you are sometime balancing here by flatting AK you are now flatting the top of your range. So would you recommend flatting your premium pairs?
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    On a RARE occasion in position vs a thinking player, yes.

    I am also curious as to your thoughts on the way ahead way behind situation as u seem to have good insight. Thank you.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    I would suggest attacking thinking players pretty often go to war make them fear you. And if you are going to flat AK against a strong player I would suggesting taking the slight equit boost and flatting AKs. As for being way ahead or way behind on this run out I would say you are going to b very far ahead here the majority of the time. There isn't much that beats you. When you take this line you are always calling River that's why you take this line. But in general bluff catching isn't The best line to take. Being a hero is costly. Make him regret messing you with put him to the test. Like I said go to war. You'll lose some
    Battles but trust me if you can learn to stomach it better then him it will be very profitable. He will stay out of your way more and you will be able to isolate the poorer players more effectively. Or maybe you can get him to spaz when you have the nuts which is always fun.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    On a different track, when we talk about this as a "way ahead/way behind" scenario, is this situation really that much worse than any other flop ? Assuming your opponents are only playing suited 7s, the hands you are "way behind" are one combo of AA, two combos of 87s, two combos of 76s, no combos of A7s, and less likely two combos each of 97s and 75s. That's maybe nine combos, could be more if your opponents are very loose but then if they're playing Q7s they're playing a lot of other crap. For a dry flop say A72, you are way behind the seven possible sets. Not really much different. Am I missing something ?
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    edited March 2016
    colldav wrote: »
    On a different track, when we talk about this as a "way ahead/way behind" scenario, is this situation really that much worse than any other flop ? Assuming your opponents are only playing suited 7s, the hands you are "way behind" are one combo of AA, two combos of 87s, two combos of 76s, no combos of A7s, and less likely two combos each of 97s and 75s. That's maybe nine combos, could be more if your opponents are very loose but then if they're playing Q7s they're playing a lot of other crap. For a dry flop say A72, you are way behind the seven possible sets. Not really much different. Am I missing something ?

    I think so. I am way ahead or way behind on this flop because when ahead, my opponents never have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand. In this situation, two outs with a PP or 3 outs to a higher two pair if they have an ace with a kicker above 7. When I am behind, I don't have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand (two aces if I'm not already dead). Due to the fact that there are so few cards that can help either way, it is a way ahead way behind situation. From what I have read and heard it is reasonable to check these flops back.

    Now say for instance I have the same hand and played it the same way, but the flop came : :Ac:7d:9d

    In this situation I am not way ahead or way behind because there are possible holding either villain could have that have a reasonable amount of equity vs me. Any diamond draw, and straight draw, any combo draw or even a middle pair. In this situation it would be completely crazy for me to check the flop back.



  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    GabeyJ wrote: »
    I would suggest attacking thinking players pretty often go to war make them fear you. And if you are going to flat AK against a strong player I would suggesting taking the slight equit boost and flatting AKs. As for being way ahead or way behind on this run out I would say you are going to b very far ahead here the majority of the time. There isn't much that beats you. When you take this line you are always calling River that's why you take this line. But in general bluff catching isn't The best line to take. Being a hero is costly. Make him regret messing you with put him to the test. Like I said go to war. You'll lose some
    Battles but trust me if you can learn to stomach it better then him it will be very profitable. He will stay out of your way more and you will be able to isolate the poorer players more effectively. Or maybe you can get him to spaz when you have the nuts which is always fun.


    Thank you. I can def see the value in playing vs. a strong player this way. Never really thought of that from a meta game perspective but it makes sense. And I agree once I take this line I have to call the river 100pct

  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    bigpaps wrote: »
    colldav wrote: »
    On a different track, when we talk about this as a "way ahead/way behind" scenario, is this situation really that much worse than any other flop ? Assuming your opponents are only playing suited 7s, the hands you are "way behind" are one combo of AA, two combos of 87s, two combos of 76s, no combos of A7s, and less likely two combos each of 97s and 75s. That's maybe nine combos, could be more if your opponents are very loose but then if they're playing Q7s they're playing a lot of other crap. For a dry flop say A72, you are way behind the seven possible sets. Not really much different. Am I missing something ?

    I think so. I am way ahead or way behind on this flop because when ahead, my opponents never have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand. In this situation, two outs with a PP or 3 outs to a higher two pair if they have an ace with a kicker above 7. When I am behind, I don't have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand (two aces if I'm not already dead). Due to the fact that there are so few cards that can help either way, it is a way ahead way behind situation. From what I have read and heard it is reasonable to check these flops back.

    Now say for instance I have the same hand and played it the same way, but the flop came : :Ac:7d:9d

    In this situation I am not way ahead or way behind because there are possible holding either villain could have that have a reasonable amount of equity vs me. Any diamond draw, and straight draw, any combo draw or even a middle pair. In this situation it would be completely crazy for me to check the flop back.



    My point is that my "way behindness" with AK on this flop is pretty similar to what it is on a super dry flop like K72 rainbow. You make a valid point that my "way aheadness" is better because on K72 middle pair has five outs against me, whereas on A77 hands most hands have 2 outs at best.

    I don't disagree with your logic for checking the flop if you think the hand is only worth two streets of value. For me however this hand would be in the top 10% of my range on this board and is therefore a three streets of value hand (same as AK on K72...). My opponents have elected not to bet, therefore I would need to bet.

    AA is way ahead/way behind on this board, but that doesn't mean you need to pot control with it. The age old questions of will worse hands call/will better hands fold if we bet are what is important.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    colldav wrote: »
    bigpaps wrote: »
    colldav wrote: »
    On a different track, when we talk about this as a "way ahead/way behind" scenario, is this situation really that much worse than any other flop ? Assuming your opponents are only playing suited 7s, the hands you are "way behind" are one combo of AA, two combos of 87s, two combos of 76s, no combos of A7s, and less likely two combos each of 97s and 75s. That's maybe nine combos, could be more if your opponents are very loose but then if they're playing Q7s they're playing a lot of other crap. For a dry flop say A72, you are way behind the seven possible sets. Not really much different. Am I missing something ?

    I think so. I am way ahead or way behind on this flop because when ahead, my opponents never have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand. In this situation, two outs with a PP or 3 outs to a higher two pair if they have an ace with a kicker above 7. When I am behind, I don't have a reasonable amount of equity in the hand (two aces if I'm not already dead). Due to the fact that there are so few cards that can help either way, it is a way ahead way behind situation. From what I have read and heard it is reasonable to check these flops back.

    Now say for instance I have the same hand and played it the same way, but the flop came : :Ac:7d:9d

    In this situation I am not way ahead or way behind because there are possible holding either villain could have that have a reasonable amount of equity vs me. Any diamond draw, and straight draw, any combo draw or even a middle pair. In this situation it would be completely crazy for me to check the flop back.



    My point is that my "way behindness" with AK on this flop is pretty similar to what it is on a super dry flop like K72 rainbow. You make a valid point that my "way aheadness" is better because on K72 middle pair has five outs against me, whereas on A77 hands most hands have 2 outs at best.

    I don't disagree with your logic for checking the flop if you think the hand is only worth two streets of value. For me however this hand would be in the top 10% of my range on this board and is therefore a three streets of value hand (same as AK on K72...). My opponents have elected not to bet, therefore I would need to bet.

    AA is way ahead/way behind on this board, but that doesn't mean you need to pot control with it. The age old questions of will worse hands call/will better hands fold if we bet are what is important.


    Very good points. Maybe I am wrong on this, but I feel if there is a bet and a call on every street here, I lose more than I win. If we are assuming bet and call on every street, i feel there are a lot more combos that call and have me beat.What calls 3 streets that I have beat? AQ maybe? Maybe AJ though a highly doubt the pro calls three big streets here with AJ, though the donk in bb might. Maybe I am wrong on this
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    You know the game you play in, so if you think you could only get two streets of value then you are probably right, in which case I like your line.
  • bigpapsbigpaps Red Chipper Posts: 42
    Maybe, but overall I think u guys r right. I should have led on the flop, though when I play it as I did I have to call turn and river 100pct of the time. This time it worked out of max value but in the long term, maybe not.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GabeyJ wrote: »
    So if you are sometime balancing here by flatting AK you are now flatting the top of your range. So would you recommend flatting your premium pairs?

    Let me throw that back on you. So when you have AA/KK/QQ here you 3-bet every time? So basically if you don't 3-bet a hand, your opponent can immediately eliminate those from your range.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    colldav wrote: »
    AA is way ahead/way behind on this board, but that doesn't mean you need to pot control with it. The age old questions of will worse hands call/will better hands fold if we bet are what is important.

    But I don't think saying "I think I can get 2 streets of value" is equivalent to "pot control". In other words, I can think your second sentence is correct while at the same time not necessarily feeling that your first sentence is really valid.

  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    I 3 bet a pretty high frequency so I need to balance with my strong hands. And I don't want to flat the top of my range on the BU allowing the blinds to come in. I don't think we should try and get tricky with the top of our range when we don't close the action. So yes when I call they can eliminate AA KK QQ JJ 10 other top of my range hands. I think it's harder to play against some one the will 3 bet you with all types of hands then worrying about someone flatting the top of their range. I will get paid way more when o hit since it's unlikely to someone that I have a strong hand. I want to battle aggressive players not play passive against them
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So basically you're saying sometimes balance isn't as important as some other things, in which case I agree. Sometimes I get the impression some people go overboard with protecting their balance when doing so conflicts with some fundamentals. There's only so far you can go down that road before you lose more money than you gain through deception.

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