2/5 Post Hand Line Discussion

Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
2/5 - 9 Handed

Outside of a 1 hour 1/2 session nearly 2 years back I have never played at this casino. This hand took place about 2.5 hours in. The game is pretty loose. Lots of limping and limp calling. Players have turned over some bad hands.

Villain MP (seat 1) $900 - He was not one of the terrible players. He was able to fold and played hands with some potential though he probably limped too often.

Hero SB $610 (seat 6) - I was pretty tight due to lack of cards for the first 2 hours. However I started picking up some hands and was raising a lot in the last couple orbits. I hold :Qs:Qd .

All but 1 or 2 players limp. I make it $45 and all folds accept for Villain.

FLOP ~$120 :Td:9s:6d

Hero Checks/$165
Villain $60/Calls $105 - He took very little time to make the call.

TURN ~$450 :Td:9s:6d:8c

I shove for $400. Villain tanks for 2-3 minutes. At some point he starts talking out loud and keeps saying "Why don't I believe you." He finally calls. I turn over my Queens. I don't recall the river but I'm good.

I felt that I played the hand correctly and probably wouldn't have even posted it. Please feel free to tell me otherwise. But a discussion took place between seats 1, 2, and 3. They are clearly regs at the casino based on their interactions with each other, other players and the staff. My guess is that they are among the better players in this pool but by no means pros. Now I'm at the other end of the table and busy stacking my chips as I over hear them saying things like "I can't believe he did that with a pair" "maybe I can see with a set of 10s" "That was pretty sick" etc, etc. The tone wasn't mean but more of disbelief.

So Red Chippers - what say you?

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2016
    so you check/raised to 165 on the flop?

    what's your thought process here?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pretty awesome. Style points for confusing the regs.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    so you check/raised to 165 on the flop?

    what's your thought process here?

    With 2 :Xd and a semi-coordinated flop this board rates to hit Villain more than me. That's why I checked. But that doesn't mean he smashed it, especially after he only bets $60 into $120, though I don't know Villain enough to know if HE thinks $60 is too low. I believe he holds something like :Jc:Tc or :Xd:Xd . I don't think he has any sets because he limped pre-flop. Maybe :6h:6c . I think I'm ahead of his range so I got more money in. Hence the raise.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Love the flop CR, bigger sizing though.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Personally - I'm not a fan of the line you took. I think you were lucky to get max value because your line is contrarian to what good players do.

    Here's why:
    Good to great players are looking to get the most out of their premium hands - so they take betting lines that extract the maximum without risking their stack.

    Check/raising is typically a betting line that players take when they want to push a V out of the pot (unless in your room it's used often). So taking such a line often forces V to fold his hand. Yeah, you're getting him to fold out his equity too - but as played - you're probably way ahead and he's got like 5 out or so.

    Then, you shove the turn - again trying to force V to fold. And again, losing value for your hand when he folds and putting your whole stack at risk without knowing if you're good.

    I'd recheck your though process here. You say that the flop hits V's range that's why you checked. But that's exactly the reason why you should bet. What would you have done if he 4-bet you all in on the flop?

    I've seen many guys in our 2/5 game take similar lines as you did: limp/raising in EP with AA, check/raising flop from oop with a set, etc. And in all cases, it's because they're scared players who are uncomfortable playing big hands oop - or too green to fold when the board and V tells them that they're beat so they shove and damn be the results.

    In the Moneymaker days - this kind of line got called and paid off nearly every time. But in today's games - it's rare. Me thinks you're lucky that V thought you were leveling him and called. But play this same hand this way 100 times and I'm willing to bet that over 80% of the time you're only getting called by 2-pair or better. Making this betting line the least profitable.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I'd recheck your though process here. You say that the flop hits V's range that's why you checked. But that's exactly the reason why you should bet. What would you have done if he 4-bet you all in on the flop?

    If he 4-bet shoves I fold. Part of my decision to c/r was because Villain only bet $60 into the $120 pot. My c/r is targeting the part of his range that I beat, which I think is most of it. And I want to build the pot. If I lead out and he just calls. I also don't know where I stand. The c/r raise allows me to build the pot to put him a tough decision when I believe I am ahead. I think it also confuses him - and apparently others at the table as well.

    I'd be interested to hear what line you would have taken and why.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not too fond of your thought process - because if feels like it's all over the place.
    If you were to say that this guy plays standard - and tricky plays in your room are typically a bluff... then I'd be okay with your betting line. Or that V's a huge calling station when he hits a piece of the flop, then I see why you're doing what you did.
    Because you're doing it for a reason.

    But you stated that you're targeting the part of his range that you beat... that's all well and good - but when you check/raise, you're typically folding out the range that you beat and only keeping in the range that either flat out beats you or has such huge equity that you're not as favored as you think. (At least that's been my experience.)
    Hands like :Ad:9d are flipping with you. Hands like :9d:7d are way ahead on the flop.

    You also stated that you wanted to build a pot because you thought you were ahead - but didn't want to lead out - because if he called, you didn't know where you stood. Well, how do have him calling a check/raise tell you anything about where you stand? If anything, it should warn you that maybe you're behind! So your betting line confused me as much as it did him. And taking these kinds of lines are usually unprofitable in the long-term.

    Look, I'm no poker guru and like most, I'm still learning. And rethinking everything after every so many months of playing. But I can see why regs at the table thought you played it strange.

    How would I have played it?
    if the pot is 120 on the flop, I'd have bet 100-110.
    On the turn, I'm probably not slowing down. Depending on my read on the player - I'm either betting 1/2 pot or 3/4 again.
    On the river, I'm pushing all in if it's a blank. (He's probably folding here.)

    I probably would not have made as much as you did - but taking this betting line allows me to fold if he shoves the turn (saving money) and allows me to play all my future draws as if I have the nuts (establishing a good table image).
    So taking a more straight aggressive betting line allows me to win more money with non-nutted hands and lose the least with premiums that get out-drawn.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    It's hard for me to say too much about Villain because my total experience with him was the 2.5 hours I had at the table up to this point. If anything I'd assume he plays relatively standard and playing an unusual line against him may have some merit.

    I do disagree that his call of my c/r means I'm behind. To me, if he sees me do that he would think I'm strong and he will repop me there. Or he may think I'm on a :Xd draw and want to get me off of it. Of course he could just call if he was nutted. But I think his call puts him on a hand he wants to continue with but is behind on. Plus, if he was on complete air at least I got him to put in another $60.

    Though I do see some of your points.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    It's hard for me to say too much about Villain because my total experience with him was the 2.5 hours I had at the table up to this point. If anything I'd assume he plays relatively standard and playing an unusual line against him may have some merit.

    I do disagree that his call of my c/r means I'm behind. To me, if he sees me do that he would think I'm strong and he will repop me there. Or he may think I'm on a :Xd draw and want to get me off of it. Of course he could just call if he was nutted. But I think his call puts him on a hand he wants to continue with but is behind on. Plus, if he was on complete air at least I got him to put in another $60.

    Though I do see some of your points.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Skors3 wrote: »
    Though I do see some of your points.

    And this is what makes poker so wonderful and frustrating all at the same time.

    There are so many ways to play a hand. And all of them can be correct... as long as you have a reason for it. Just offering some food for thought since you asked.

    Best of luck

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