AKo vs UTG limper

chimerachimera Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
Local casino regular game.

Villain is UTG, regular player tends to limp speculative hands and raise strong ones. Has played about 75% of hands so far always limp-calling. Have shown down two hands one with KTo the other K8o.

Blinds 30/60
Villain UTG limps from stack of of 3100
2 folds,
BTN, SB limp
Hero BB Raises 250 with AdKc
Villain 3bets 550 folds to hero.
Hero calls 550

pot 1220
Flop Kd 6d 2c
Hero checks
Villain bets 1100
Hero has 1950 behind.
Can I fold top pair here?
Can I really call for over half my stack?
Should I raise? and if so should I shove?


  • QTxYankeeQTxYankee Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited March 2016
    I think we are only concerned with two ranges for villain here. He could have chosen to limp a really narrow, nutted range here for some reason (planning this very aggressive check-raise, no doubt). But, alternatively, he could just as easily be trying to thwart your "obvious limper attack stealing attempt" with a good, but far from nutted hand.

    In the latter case, let's say he's probably on TT+, AJs+, KJs+, AKo. (I'll bet many of you would recommend a wider range for this.) Because of our cards and the flop, villain only has 38 combos in his range. Four of them crush us (three of AA and one of KK), we chop with the other six AK, and we're way ahead of the other 28. And we have the back door nut flush draw to boot! This is an easy shove.

    But what if he's more nutted? Say, QQ+, AK. That's only 16 combos. The same four are crushing us, we're still ahead of the 6 QQ, and we chop against the 6 AK. So we still have slightly more equity here (flopzilla says we're 56% against his 44% but will tie almost 40%) .

    In view of your observation that he raises his strong hands, this latter holding seems remote. So if you can eliminate the 66, 22, and two pair holdings based on his pre-flop action, you have to think you're between a small favorite and huge one. Just shove.

    Calling half your stack was, of course, never a consideration.
  • ScottValScottVal Red Chipper Posts: 108
    I would have shoved, and pretty quickly, because there wasn't that much money left.

    Also, I would have raised more pre-flop, probably to 300 or maybe a bit more.

    30-60? Where were you playing?

    I assume the villain had a better hand than yours?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't understand what the game is. This is a $30/60 NL cash game? Don't think I've ever heard of that before. That's a typical limit structure, but the betting is obviously not limit. It looks like tournament blinds, but the game wasn't described as a tournament.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    What was your first thought when this villain reraised pre flop? What range did you put him on that led you to believe calling was the right play? What was your reasoning for not 4 betting?

    Answer these BEFORE you decide what to do pre flop and there are no questions post flop. Your plan was already formulated for this flop.

    As played, other than say AAK, this is like the best flop on the planet for your hand. So why the angst?

  • chimerachimera Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    edited April 2016
    It's a local casino weekly tournament, odd structure I agree.
  • chimerachimera Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    The villain actually had AA and I went home early, Ive never seen him make that kind of play before and I play in that tournament, as does he, most weeks for over two years now.

    The fact the villain had AA isn't really the issue, I was more concerned about how I played the hand. Certainly I did not have AA in the villain's range. Looking back I think I should either have shove AI initially or 4bet the villains 3bet all-in. Either way not shoving was a mistake: this was a good flop for me but had I been ahead I doubt if I would have got paid.

    No angst sullyooo just an examination of my play.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    chimera wrote: »
    It's a local casino weekly tournament, odd structure I agree.

    No, it's just that you called it "regular game" which normally implies cash game. 30/60 is a pretty standard blind level for tournaments, and also for limit cash games, but very rare for NL cash games.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fold preflop.

    You mentioned 2 levels of villain's play.
    1) limp speculative hands
    2) raise strong hands

    This is a different category, the EP limp reraise. He has AA/KK normally, full range, end of story.

    Of course that's not 100% true, but close enough. Calling is no good here. First preference is fold, second preference is shove. If you think he'll do this with QQ also, and you wait to flop an A or K, you're not getting any more money. And if you whiff you're folding. It's better to be all in with AK than play it out. But you should probably just fold preflop.

    To answer your questions, calling on the flop is silly. Again, you're either all in or fold. And if you called with AK to begin with, I'm not sure what you were hoping for. Folding is obviously extremely inconsistent with calling preflop.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    +1 @ jeffnc

    One of things I'm constantly working on is trusting my observations (reads)

    Your description of villain was so spot on and thoughtful. This action was so unexpected. What else could he have? I immediately thought AA when I read your post

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    Your description of villain was so spot on and thoughtful. This action was so unexpected.

    Yeah, so in that vein, your description of the hand was probably better than most players at the table would have been if you asked them to describe it. So you need to take advantage of this skill.

  • chimerachimera Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    Yes, this is the issue, that's the leak! If I had had something like 86 I might have still raised, expecting the limpers to fold and any callers to fold to a c-bet, but with that hand I wouldn't have had an issue with folding to the 3bet. I was blinded to the fact he raises his strong hands by the fact I had AK!
    Thanks guys.

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