Opening Raise Size Question

johnvicjohnvic Red Chipper Posts: 42 ✭✭
I'm a terminal beginner so this is one of those default type questions. In a $1-$2 game I open for $7, a pot sized bet. In a couple of weeks I'll be staying at The Linq and may play in their $1-$1 game. A pot sized bet would be $4, but it seems small. Any thoughts?
«1

Comments

  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    7 seems extremely small. Does this work
    In your games to get people out of the pot
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    Several.

    In your normal game, when you raise to $7 - how many callers are you getting? I find $7 to be too low and my standard is $12. But every game is different.

    $4 does seem too small to me. But you won't really know until you get there and play. Maybe start with $4 and see how that goes. If you find that $4 isn't scaring anyone away, then start bumping it up until you only pick up 1 or 2 callers. My gut tells me $4 will not get the job done, but it will be good practice at adjusting to the table.

    Please report back on your stay at the Linq. I'm staying there for the WSOP.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Dont look for arbitrary numbers to guide you.
    When you sit down think about what you are trying to accomplish with your raise preflop, and based on the game dynamic an answer to what that number is today will come to you.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would avoid the Linq 1/1 game.
    I played it a few years ago and ended up losing more in that game than the 2/5 at Bellagio. The stakes are so stupidly small that folks call you down light with anything and limp with monsters. Technically, a $4 raise is the "correct" bet - but who the hell is going to fold anything for $4 pre?
    If you've played 1/2 - I'd recommend you play that. Or, try your luck at a capped 2/5 game. You'd be surprised how the skill level really isn't that much different.
    good luck.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Dont look for arbitrary numbers to guide you.
    When you sit down think about what you are trying to accomplish with your raise preflop, and based on the game dynamic an answer to what that number is today will come to you.

    Yes, this is true. But when a new player asks for advice on a bet sizing strategy, giving them this kind of advice is akin to dropping you in an MMA match and saying "you know...just feel it out"
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    johnvic wrote: »
    I'm a terminal beginner so this is one of those default type questions. In a $1-$2 game I open for $7, a pot sized bet. In a couple of weeks I'll be staying at The Linq and may play in their $1-$1 game. A pot sized bet would be $4, but it seems small. Any thoughts?

    Well... what are your thoughts? What's your plan outside of advice?
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 134 ✭✭
    johnvic wrote: »
    I'm a terminal beginner so this is one of those default type questions. In a $1-$2 game I open for $7, a pot sized bet. In a couple of weeks I'll be staying at The Linq and may play in their $1-$1 game. A pot sized bet would be $4, but it seems small. Any thoughts?

    I would start with $5, and adjust from there. It may need to be a good bit more once someone limps vs when you open raise.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Dont look for arbitrary numbers to guide you.
    When you sit down think about what you are trying to accomplish with your raise preflop, and based on the game dynamic an answer to what that number is today will come to you.

    Yes, this is true. But when a new player asks for advice on a bet sizing strategy, giving them this kind of advice is akin to dropping you in an MMA match and saying "you know...just feel it out"

    I disagree. I rather have a new player learn to think early rather than later (even if it comes with some hurdles).
    I think giving someone rules of thumb and saying "raise 5x + 1x for every limper" is no longer how poker should be taught.
    I by no means am saying I have the perfect way to teach but this is just my opinion.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I disagree. I rather have a new player learn to think early rather than later (even if it comes with some hurdles).
    I think giving someone rules of thumb and saying "raise 5x + 1x for every limper" is no longer how poker should be taught.
    I by no means am saying I have the perfect way to teach but this is just my opinion.
    I agree with Soto.
    Having played this silly set-up a few years back - the opening bets ranged from 2-25.
    It's going to depend on the stacks at the table and how loose the players are.
    So it really is going to be a "feel it out" situation - where you can start by betting $5 and see what hands show up (by which players) and then increasing or decreasing the PFR depending on your position.

    I found that most people playing this game were bad players who didn't know how to fold or put the PFR on a hand. And since the buy-in was super low - the SPR was like -2 on the flop - so there was no "poker" to be played against some players.

    In my opinion, it makes no sense being a Red Chipper and learning all these amazing ways to increase your win rate but then volunteering to enter a game of poker bingo. It's being a carpenter with a huge box full of tools but being told you can only use a hammer and nails. Makes no sense.
  • johnvicjohnvic Red Chipper Posts: 42 ✭✭
    Thanks to all of you for your responses. The reason I am asking about the Linq room is because I will be staying there while I'm attending a convention. So I was looking for the most convenient place to play. The last time I was in Vegas I played at Bally's and liked the room as well as feeling that I could play well against those players. So I'll probably go there if the Linq will be frustrating. It sounds like playing 2-4 LHE at Golden Nugget. But let's say I was at the Linq right now, I have an hour or two to play and a seat is open. I buy in and immediately get a hand that I will play, not even close to a fold. I would probably go with $5. But it sounds like I should play at Bally's or one of the other nearby rooms.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Dont look for arbitrary numbers to guide you.
    When you sit down think about what you are trying to accomplish with your raise preflop, and based on the game dynamic an answer to what that number is today will come to you.

    Yes, this is true. But when a new player asks for advice on a bet sizing strategy, giving them this kind of advice is akin to dropping you in an MMA match and saying "you know...just feel it out"

    I disagree. I rather have a new player learn to think early rather than later (even if it comes with some hurdles).
    I think giving someone rules of thumb and saying "raise 5x + 1x for every limper" is no longer how poker should be taught.
    I by no means am saying I have the perfect way to teach but this is just my opinion.

    I agree with that. But at least give some guidance on what would influence the decision - otherwise "the answer will come to you" is the strategic equivalent to "good luck I guess"

    For instance:

    "If the table normally raises to $10 and it creates a 5way pot, try raising to $15 and see if that creates a HU pot that you would perform better in. If $15 doesn't do that, what about $19?"

    That way OP has something to sink their teeth into and can understand what you mean when you talk about trying to accomplish certain things with your size and the dynamic of the game.
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I understand what you are saying now, but I think being that specific is not giving people enough credit for being able to arrive at self-conclusions.

    I think teaching the process of being able to solve problems is the next step in poker education. And frankly where it has failed for so many years!

    In this example, if we say "try out 15 to get headsup, if not try 19...etc" - the person in question still hasn't been forced to understand the why.

    Understanding the why behind the entire spot, and as you can imagine there is a lot of whys to be answered even in such a trvial spot, is paramount!

    Unfortunately, for the sake of "coaching", he or she has been handed a gimmick. While the gimmick may help the person at hand in an immediate sense, this lack of fully understanding and being able to reconstruct will eventually place a ceiling on their potential.

    Eventually these players become full of gimmicks and rules of thumbs they picked from coaches, sites, and simply the enormous amount of content readily available to absorb.

    However, the ones who absorb the most don't become the best.
    In fact, at times it becomes an overload and these people become the most confused because they cannot solve anything for themselves. Once they hit this cross-road they panic and buy more coaching and study harder attempting to convince themself that they can break through. But the ceiling will forever be present.

    My point is, we need to teach people how to think and how to solve problems. How to begin to set trends.

    IDK how to do it exactly but maybe as a collective unit it can be solved.
  • blasterblaster Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    I'm gonna get behind Chin on this one. Helping/teaching someone the why behind a given action is the next frontier, and it's not going to be an easy sell for you coaches. I will share share an example, the short version. Player X, a good friend and winning player at lower stakes (1/2, 1/3, 2/5) asked me my opinion on a hand he played that I witnessed. My first question was "why" did you raise pre flop? Because your supposed to was the response. I said "OK" but why?.... Crickets. He didn't even try to hide his annoyance. The conversation went down hill from there. Remember this guy is a winner and "why" isn't on the radar. But it should be. Maybe that's were the beginners should be starting.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I understand what you are saying now, but I think being that specific is not giving people enough credit for being able to arrive at self-conclusions.

    ...

    IDK how to do it exactly but maybe as a collective unit it can be solved.

    I totally agree with all of this.

    I just challenge all of us to do a better job of explaining the WHY for our lines and thoughts in our posts.
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I would avoid the Linq 1/1 game.
    I played it a few years ago and ended up losing more in that game than the 2/5 at Bellagio. The stakes are so stupidly small that folks call you down light with anything and limp with monsters.

    You realize this doesn't make much sense, right? :-)

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Yes, this is true. But when a new player asks for advice on a bet sizing strategy, giving them this kind of advice is akin to dropping you in an MMA match and saying "you know...just feel it out"

    Yeah, you're right in a way. But at the same time, I think the analogy is a little different. It's more like assuming hero is already competent at the game (relative to the people at the table). Then telling him to watch how the other fighters are fighting, and try to figure out what the moves mean to the other fighters and adjust accordingly. Is a jab the guy's main weapon, or a prelude to a leg takedown? When he does a roundhouse kick, does he think this is going to knock you out, or is it just to keep you off balance?

    At most low stakes poker games, certain raise sizes mean something to the table. When the sizes get out of line with theory, you have to pay attention and then hopefully exploit it.

    If theory says a pot sized raise is a good thing, and so you raise $4 in a $1/$1 game with AA, but it turns out they would have called a $50 raise, then you're not doing it right. I agree with Soto - decide what you're trying to accomplish, and figure out who to achieve that based on how the table is perceiving and reacting to the different raise sizes.

  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭
    I stayed at the Linq for a week+ during last years WSOP. I also played in the 1-1 game a few times mostly just to 'hangout' with Tim.

    I did not mind the game. It kinda is what it is. Lots of short stacks balanced with really terrible play. I would say it is not going to be your most profitable lower limit game on the strip but certainly a decent place to relax and play some cards.

    The hotel itself I was not a huge fan of. Small rooms. Really congested. On the upside it is a decent location at a pretty good price. Overall you could do better in all aspects and you certainly could do worse.

    cXt
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    I agree with that. But at least give some guidance on what would influence the decision - otherwise "the answer will come to you" is the strategic equivalent to "good luck I guess"

    Yeah that would be good to have more detail. I took it not as "the answer will come to you", I thought it was "you should figure it out by watching how the other players are raising and what it seems to mean to them, rather than having a preconceived notion."

    Still kind of complicated to figure all that out and good to have some more specifics.



  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    By the way, this discussion kind of reminds me of Ed's book with Sklansky (NLHTAP). It could be a frustrating book at times because it never really told you what to do. It really just told you what to think about.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, I think teaching how to think is more important than teaching how to maneuver in vacuum spots that mean very little in the long run.
  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
    If I were starting out, I would at least like to understand what a reasonable default size would be. Obviously the extremes of opening sizes (shoving a 100 bb stack or min-raising) are fishy, so there should be some standard bracketed raise sizes.

    If I had a friend who wanted to play in the 1/3 game I play I would say something like the following:

    1. Do not choose a bet sized based upon your hand strength.
    2. You may see different bet sizes when you play on-line vs when you play live. Typical online players raise to 3bb + 1bb/ limpers. This pre-flop size allows pot-sized bets to get a 100bb stack all-in by the river. In live play you may see larger opening raises. These raises tend to be more exploitive vs "optimal.". I'm not sure how this came about, but I suspect it is an artifact of having more recreational players that are willing to call larger raises with a wider range than online.
    3. As a default I open to $12 + 1bb/limpers at 1/3. I may add 1bb or so if I am oop.
    4. I might choose a larger raise size if we are
    A. Playing deep
    B. Have " inelastic players" who will call any raise size and I want to extract the most value
    C. If my pots are ending up more multi-way than I desire.
    5. I may open for less BBs in larger games or if the table is super-tight.

    In summary I would say "$12 is a standard open size for this game. Try it out and see how it works for you for a few sessions. Once you get comfortable, you can consider tweaking your raises for game conditions."

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    If I were starting out, I would at least like to understand what a reasonable default size would be. Obviously the extremes of opening sizes (shoving a 100 bb stack or min-raising) are fishy, so there should be some standard bracketed raise sizes.

    If I had a friend who wanted to play in the 1/3 game I play I would say something like the following:

    1. Do not choose a bet sized based upon your hand strength.
    2. You may see different bet sizes when you play on-line vs when you play live. Typical online players raise to 3bb + 1bb/ limpers. This pre-flop size allows pot-sized bets to get a 100bb stack all-in by the river. In live play you may see larger opening raises. These raises tend to be more exploitive vs "optimal.". I'm not sure how this came about, but I suspect it is an artifact of having more recreational players that are willing to call larger raises with a wider range than online.
    3. As a default I open to $12 + 1bb/limpers at 1/3. I may add 1bb or so if I am oop.
    4. I might choose a larger raise size if we are
    A. Playing deep
    B. Have " inelastic players" who will call any raise size and I want to extract the most value
    C. If my pots are ending up more multi-way than I desire.
    5. I may open for less BBs in larger games or if the table is super-tight.

    In summary I would say "$12 is a standard open size for this game. Try it out and see how it works for you for a few sessions. Once you get comfortable, you can consider tweaking your raises for game conditions."

    Why you want to simply hand someone a default? Essentially you gave a detailed default formula of what the norm is and said to try it out.
    If someone came to you and said, "I want to be the best - teach me".
    Is this how you would start them out?
  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
    If I were starting out, I would at least like to understand what a reasonable default size would be. Obviously the extremes of opening sizes (shoving a 100 bb stack or min-raising) are fishy, so there should be some standard bracketed raise sizes.

    If I had a friend who wanted to play in the 1/3 game I play I would say something like the following:

    1. Do not choose a bet sized based upon your hand strength.
    2. You may see different bet sizes when you play on-line vs when you play live. Typical online players raise to 3bb + 1bb/ limpers. This pre-flop size allows pot-sized bets to get a 100bb stack all-in by the river. In live play you may see larger opening raises. These raises tend to be more exploitive vs "optimal.". I'm not sure how this came about, but I suspect it is an artifact of having more recreational players that are willing to call larger raises with a wider range than online.
    3. As a default I open to $12 + 1bb/limpers at 1/3. I may add 1bb or so if I am oop.
    4. I might choose a larger raise size if we are
    A. Playing deep
    B. Have " inelastic players" who will call any raise size and I want to extract the most value
    C. If my pots are ending up more multi-way than I desire.
    5. I may open for less BBs in larger games or if the table is super-tight.

    In summary I would say "$12 is a standard open size for this game. Try it out and see how it works for you for a few sessions. Once you get comfortable, you can consider tweaking your raises for game conditions."

    Why you want to simply hand someone a default? Essentially you gave a detailed default formula of what the norm is and said to try it out.
    If someone came to you and said, "I want to be the best - teach me".
    Is this how you would start them out?

    When I taught my kids to ride a bike, they started on training wheels, and when they were ready I took them off. Later on they added skills such as maintaining their bikes, traffic rules, etc. I didn't start them out by saying, " show me a wheelie!". ").

    I view learning like carving a sculpture... You start out with basic rough cuts and fine tune as you go along.

    Another analogy is when I got my son started on guitar. I taught him a few chords that he could play songs with, told him to have fun and come back when he absorbed what I showed him and was ready for more. When he wants to learn figure out what notes he can build an e-flat major 7th chord, I will show him.
  • zagaresezagarese Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    Maybe the important thing here is to remember to teach people from the beginning that this is a betting game, not a card game.

    What I read Soto as trying to teach is that it's a betting game.

    I think it's probably important to think about how to teach that since the traditional methods are card-based.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    kagey wrote: »
    I would avoid the Linq 1/1 game.
    I played it a few years ago and ended up losing more in that game than the 2/5 at Bellagio. The stakes are so stupidly small that folks call you down light with anything and limp with monsters.

    You realize this doesn't make much sense, right? :-)
    @jeffnc -
    I probably worded it incorrectly...
    it's just that the stakes are almost like playing 25¢/50¢ to a guy who plays $25/$100 regularly. UTG makes a $1.50 raise and you're like, "ha ha, I can't take this seriously!" but to the raiser, that's a BIG raise!
    So either I called pre too lightly, walked into traps, bet their hands for them - or called off because their all in was $12!
    I'm sure I played stupidly loose aggro when I played - so I probably made more mistakes than I normally do all the while losing $40 at a time.
    The weird thing was there were uber-tight slow-playing nut peddlers mixed with other guys that were splashing around not caring about results... and I probably didn't properly adjust to that. So I ended up running into monsters, getting called by chasers and ran bad...
    whatever...
    I found it to be the worse poker experience next to the electronic 25/50¢ tables Horseshoe Hammond used to have. It didn't play like a real poker game where you can use your entire toolbox. Instead, it was wait for nutted hands and bet, bet, bet - hoping that you're good. Not my kind of Vegas poker.
    Next time in Vegas - I encourage you to check it out and post results. If you're lucky, you can post a 3bb hourly!
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Poker is not like riding a bike or
    zagarese wrote: »
    Maybe the important thing here is to remember to teach people from the beginning that this is a betting game, not a card game.

    What I read Soto as trying to teach is that it's a betting game.

    I think it's probably important to think about how to teach that since the traditional methods are card-based.

    Yes but more importantly it is a "why" game.

    Understanding the why of even the simplest things such as "why do we raise preflop" is important.
  • ArtArtBobartArtArtBobart Red Chipper Posts: 356 ✭✭
    Question: you have a friend who plays 4/8 limit and small casino tournies. He wants to join you for 1/2 this Friday to test the waters. He point blank asks you what he should use as a raise size. What are you going to tell him?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    I would tell him to raise to a size that he thinks gets the job done for whatever it is he is trying to do.
  • GabeyJGabeyJ Red Chipper Posts: 436 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Would you then try and give him guidlines to things he should be trying to accomplish with his raise? Get him to start thinking productively rather then lost?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Yeah sure.
    But these are not just things that you can just do on a whim in a conversation 5 minutes before he sits down.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file