Hand Reading Workbook

tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
Wow really jazzed about the new workbook. Just the content I was looking for after the Hand Reading Lab. I am taking my time going thru the hands. I think I spent several hours over a couple of days on the first hand alone. I am doing the flopzilla analysis from both the hero and the villain. After having completed the hand reading lab I have been reevaluating my ranges vs various villains. Observing the different frequencies of both the hero and villain is very eye opening and takes a lot of revisions. Leaks start popping up and it forces you to rethink ranges. Great way top study off the table. If I could only play that way live. I will post a link to my work soon. If anyone needs help doing range construction refer to Doug Hulls videos on range construction. There are several and he walks you thru his method using flopzilla.
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Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    Thanks Tom! The more you work with this stuff off the table, the more pieces you'll be able to use in real-time. Just keep grinding, and keep getting an innate feel for ranges, frequencies, and combos =)
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    I am sharing my analysis of Hand 1
    Upon final analysis I feel my initial ranges were too tight for both Hero and Villain.

    Hand reading workbook hand 1 public link
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3793460/Hand Reading workbk Hand 1.pdf
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Just got the workbook. Excited to get to work and start plugging leaks, and crush these home games. I am going to try and do one hand a day minimum. I run MAC products so Poker Cruncher the same as Flopzilla? I got the app for my phone but if i were to get one for PC should I get basic or expert?
  • gunfishgunfish Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    Where is the link to buy the workbook?
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    @tfazio thanks for providing your analysts of hand 1. I am learning Flopzilla now and was wondering how to go about the exercise. Your analysis gives me a good framework and I like the way you formatted your answer.
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016
    Two Questions for SplitSuit: Are you only selling the paperback only through Amazon or are you selling it yourself also? Since you said it was an Amazon exclusive I suspect that you had to sign the way the possibility of selling it on your own for a bit. I'm interested in this both for "poker" reasons and because I'm interested in the economics of bookselling.

    The poker reason for my interest in this question: I'm wondering if we buy the Hand Lab and the Workbook together might we get a discount on the Workbook? Then I can save up for both at once, instead of one and then the other.
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭✭
    tfazio wrote: »
    I am sharing my analysis of Hand 1
    Upon final analysis I feel my initial ranges were too tight for both Hero and Villain.

    Hand reading workbook hand 1 public link
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3793460/Hand Reading workbk Hand 1.pdf

    Thank you for this. It is really well done. I am going to spend some time tonight going thru your work and comparing it to mine. Will post thoughts after I finish.

    cXt
    Twitter = @ChipXtractor
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    gunfish wrote: »
    Where is the link to buy the workbook?

    The physical is on Amazon: http://redchippoker.com/workbook/clkg/http/amzn.to/1SDKIJ9
    The ebook is here: http://redchippoker.com/workbook/
    Imperator wrote: »
    Two Questions for SplitSuit: Are you only selling the paperback only through Amazon or are you selling it yourself also? Since you said it was an Amazon exclusive I suspect that you had to sign the way the possibility of selling it on your own for a bit. I'm interested in this both for "poker" reasons and because I'm interested in the economics of bookselling.

    The poker reason for my interest in this question: I'm wondering if we buy the Hand Lab and the Workbook together might we get a discount on the Workbook? Then I can save up for both at once, instead of one and then the other.

    1. I'm only selling the paperback through Amazon. Not because I have to...but because I make a terrible book shipper given my schedule and the economics don't really benefit me much to sell it myself. I really appreciate you looking out for me by asking though =)
    2. There is a code in the workbook that saves you $50 off the Lab. If you are thinking about doing both, get the workbook first so you can get the code.
  • bryanbryan Red Chipper Posts: 2
    Thanks for posting your Hand 1 Tom, a few comments:
    1. If villain is continuing with that range, KQ is ahead of almost his entire CC range except AK, seeing that would you reconsider checking KQ?
    2. A Nit in the CO has 22-55 in their PF calling range I would think, they live for those hands, seems safe to remove them if they just call the flop
    3. Since he is a nit, he wants to get to showdown with his TP type hands, even QQ. You end up with 0 combos of bluffs, which I think is ok since you aren't getting to the river with any hand that doesn't have showdown value. However if the river is not a Q, are you betting with any missed flush draws? AQss, AJss etc?
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    bryan wrote: »
    Thanks for posting your Hand 1 Tom, a few comments:
    1. If villain is continuing with that range, KQ is ahead of almost his entire CC range except AK, seeing that would you reconsider checking KQ?
    2. A Nit in the CO has 22-55 in their PF calling range I would think, they live for those hands, seems safe to remove them if they just call the flop
    3. Since he is a nit, he wants to get to showdown with his TP type hands, even QQ. You end up with 0 combos of bluffs, which I think is ok since you aren't getting to the river with any hand that doesn't have showdown value. However if the river is not a Q, are you betting with any missed flush draws? AQss, AJss etc?

    Brian,
    1. You may be correct but KQ gives me too many
    Value hands and weakens my checking range.
    2. I agree with 22-55 I redid the exercise using a wider ranges for both.
    3. As it stands my range has only AQs & AJs for FD
    Qh is so bad it leaves me no bluff hands.
    My new range has many more AXs hands so yes.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Acesalad wrote: »
    @tfazio thanks for providing your analysts of hand 1. I am learning Flopzilla now and was wondering how to go about the exercise. Your analysis gives me a good framework and I like the way you formatted your answer.

    Acesalad, refer to Doug's "Constructing Ranges" videos
    he shows the format I used.
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    Awesome! I will check it out. Thanks again!
  • bryanbryan Red Chipper Posts: 2
    tfazio wrote: »

    Brian,
    1. You may be correct but KQ gives me too many
    Value hands and weakens my checking range.

    What is villains range when he bets flop after you check?

    I'm guessing its probably only AK, KQ and sets, possibly only his nut fds as well however a lot of nits would check behind on K high flops with AQ/AJss imo.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for your input.
    Starting Hand #2
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
  • eisen009eisen009 Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Here is a link to my flopzilla analysis of Hand #1. I didn't do villain's range simultanously as tfazio did...just did my own range (used Ed Miller's suggested starting cash ranges for hijack and earlier). Any input welcomed.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1p8t5mba01ncqe/HR Workbook Hand 1 WPTBC.docx?dl=0
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    At first glance you didn't include your pre flop range % and it seems you decided on a strategy first and then listed the number of combos and frequency %
    I approach it differently. I calculate the frequencies first using millers 1% adjust for real world circumstances such as player type position flop texture and then I build a value range and a bluff range. Millers 1% was a good starting place and Doug's Constructing Ranges . I start out tighter 11%. My CB was also tighter as I am OOP, 60% on flop and turn but slowing down to 37% on the river as Q is not good for my range.
    It will be interesting what James has to say. BTW If you haven't Joined Mastermind the workshop starts this Sat. and is weekly for four weeks. Contact James to join. Yes it cost $$ but things of value do. ;)
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    My experience of the first 10 hands of the hand reading notebook has been the following. I would go through three hand, much in the way that @tfazio used flopzilla to go through his hands. Then I would review the work and say to myself, "This is bad. I don't like this." Then I would ask my self, "How can I fix this?" And I would go back and experiment with my preflop ranges.

    Here's my problem. I can adjust my preflop ranges for each hand given the @SplitSuit 's scenario and come up with beautiful looking frequencies from flop to river, but would I really do this over-the-felt?

    I mostly play live and the truth is recently I've both been tightening and widening my preflop ranges depending on the situation. I've been trying to be aware of my ranges and frequencies a lot more than I have been in the past. But the kind of precise adjustments that I make when doing the workbook is nowhere within my capacity over the felt.

    I have learned a lot from the workbook. But I'm having my usual problem. My theoretical knowledge grows but my application of my knowledge does not come easy. @ChipXtractor told me the other night that what I need most is more hours playing. Perhaps that is the only solution.
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    @imperator I feel the same way. Haven't done a hand in a couple weeks so got to get back on it. I found it hard to make this plays real time like it's just going so fast. I started playin online just for the fact to get more hands in. The problem I have is trying to accomplish all I read or studied all at once. I usually do ok with one table but for multi tables (2) it's hard to be as logical. I have experimented with some of the stuff learned and it has worked but that is for 5nl much smaller than live
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,778 -
    If you can get close during live play, you are in a much better spot. Some hands clearly fall in one bucket. Some clearly fall in another. Those that are margin and could go either way are the ones you are trying to refine. Eventually that list of marginal hands gets much smaller.

    At some point, the toughest decisions are the most meaningless. Mistaking a +10BB spot for a -10BB spot is bad. Mistaking a -0.1BB spot for a +0.2BB spot is going to be a much harder decision but that is fine. Whichever way you go, it is so close anyways that the error is tiny.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    If you can get close during live play, you are in a much better spot. Some hands clearly fall in one bucket. Some clearly fall in another. Those that are margin and could go either way are the ones you are trying to refine. Eventually that list of marginal hands gets much smaller.

    Thank you, Doug. I think I have to think about improving as a kind of dead reckoning over the felt.

    There is an anxious Greek concept used by Plato and Aritsotle; Praxis.. What it means is "the unity of theory and practice." Both theologians and Marxists use this term now days.

    But the most popular usage is by educators. "Praxis is used by educators to describe a recurring passage through a cyclical process of experiential learning,"

    @Doug Hull , what you are telling me is that part of this "cyclical process" is analogous to what you call in one of your videos "bracketing". We are continually reducing our margin of error through this process.
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    OMG why did I type "anxious" and think "ancient" in the above? Talk about a Freudian slip, aka parapraxis!!!!! I must be anxious about my praxis.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    Imperator wrote: »
    But the most popular usage is by educators. "Praxis is used by educators to describe a recurring passage through a cyclical process of experiential learning,"

    Where was this post a week ago!? I would have loved to use the term 'praxis' instead of 'learning loop' in the FLASHED podcast!
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Imperator wrote: »
    But the most popular usage is by educators. "Praxis is used by educators to describe a recurring passage through a cyclical process of experiential learning,"

    Where was this post a week ago!? I would have loved to use the term 'praxis' instead of 'learning loop' in the FLASHED podcast!

    I think the difference is in the conceptual landscape of a computer-math-economics back ground and a physics-classics-philosophy background. "Learning loop" is perfectly fine and probably requires less explanation. But "praxis" is the technical and philosophical term for what you were trying to say.

    Actually the word came to mind for two reasons: I was downloading from Berkey's Academy, writing in my poker diary, and thinking that what Berkey is aiming at in his teaching methods is the "unity of theory and practice." An hour later I was listening to your podcast and heard you talking about "learning loops." In both cases I thought of the concept praxis.

    Of course the idea of a positive feedback loop is implicit in the idea of "praxis".
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Questions for @SplitSuit ... (Of course I don't expect any attention until after the confusion of cards and characters which is Las Vegas Now. )

    I've finished the first 10 problems in the Hand-Reading Workbook. I will post some of them soon. But what I really want to do is just go back and rework them all with different ranges.

    I've begun Part 2, but I am obsessively thinking about Part 1.

    Hand #6, especially, is a problem, I keep going back to. This is mainly because, with my ranges, I either have to fold or go all in at the turn given the line of "You" in the book. I think that I should over-bet the pot instead of raising to less than 3/4th of the pot on the turn. My range is highly polarized for the over-bet and with that range I am ready to go all-in.

    So to sum up here are my two questions:

    1) Is it good practice just to start over and do the first part 2 or 3 times, with different ranges and different thought scenarios before getting into the meat of the book? In other words, as part of my learning curve, should I give into my obsessiveness here or resist it?

    2) As for Hand #6, I would like to post all of my work in detail as a separate Hand #6 decision tree thread in this Hand Reading Forum. Will that be OK? and will @SplitSuit go over it?

    Imperator

  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    I am well into part 3 and that is where the range vs range comes in imho keep going until you get into part 3. That is where you'll get the most out of the book. Then you can go back over the previous examples from range vs range and change things up different villain types different actions it really can be a study regime for a long time.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    Imperator wrote: »
    Questions for @SplitSuit ...

    1. I would suggest going through section 2 at least before you consider doing a u-turn. It's very easy to get lost in your own Web of self ranges... But you need their ranges to better build and shape your own...
    2. For sure.
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Imperator wrote: »
    Questions for @SplitSuit ...

    1. I would suggest going through section 2 at least before you consider doing a u-turn. It's very easy to get lost in your own Web of self ranges... But you need their ranges to better build and shape your own...
    2. For sure.

    Thanks, @SplitSuit, I will take your advise and probably @tfazio 's also .

    Btw, @tfazio I always look forward to your workbook postings... and I always make sure not to look at them until I finish mine because they are so detailed that they can have an unconscious influence.

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