Hand # 2 XX on Jh 8s 4c

tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
edited April 2016 in Live Workbook (Vol 1)
PREFLOP: RANGE (16.1%)( 214 combos)

:Jh :8s :4c

FLOP: RANGE (73%-of previous range)(141 combos)

Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = No, AQ = Yes

:Jc

TURN: RANGE (70%-of previous range)(93 combos)

Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT = NA, Draws = Bet

:3s

RIVER: RANGE (41%-of previous range)(39 combos)

Would you bet $140 with your entire range = No, Potting Over Pair+ Villain is spewy and has Mid Pair at best.

public link
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3793460/Hand Reading Workbook Hand #2.pdf
«13

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    Based upon the logic that villain would continue with many second pairs (you mentioned this in your river analysis) - why not bet the flop with 99/TT as well?
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    PREFLOP: Opening 23% (310 combos)

    FLOP; :Jh :8s :4c

    Betting JT, 99 and TT, checking AQ. I am also betting my gutshots, OESD, BDFD, and weak pairs. Betting 74% (206 of 279 combos)

    TURN: :Jc

    Betting AA, TT, OESD, FD, A high hands, and overs. I am checking gutters and middle pair. Betting 64% (120 of 187 combos).

    RIVER: :3s

    Betting $140 with TT, 99 and overpairs. I believe I would pot trips or better vs this player for max value because I believe he will snap off with any piece of the board. I am also throwing in some bluffs at $140. My bluffs would be: T9 (16 combos) and A high (15 combos). I am betting 72% which is 86 of 120 combos and 31 of those 86 are bluffs.

    Analysis: Initially on this hand, I was a bit concerned about including a ton of bluffs vs a spewy player because I know he is likely to snap off with bottom pair or something like 87o here. However, I also believe that he will be floating and chasing draws very often as well, all of which I can force a fold on the river with a good frequency which would require me to include enough bluffs to be able to do so.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    tfazio wrote: »
    PREFLOP: RANGE (16.1%)( 214 combos)

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE (73%-of previous range)(141 combos)

    Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = No, AQ = Yes

    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (70%-of previous range)(93 combos)

    Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT = NA, Draws = Bet

    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (41%-of previous range)(39 combos)

    Would you bet $140 with your entire range = No, Potting Over Pair+ Villain is spewy and has Mid Pair at best.

    public link
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3793460/Hand Reading Workbook Hand #2.pdf

    Curious to know why you wouldn't bet 99-TT here. I think it's definitely the best hand most of the time here and you want to get value early in case the board gets tricky on future streets.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Using Millers 70% rule and wanting to keep my value betting frequency close to the 1/3 value 2/3 bluff recommended on the flop, on this particular flop I have so many value hands that I need check 99 - TT. On a different flop the value range might change including pp below tp.
    refer to millers 1%.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    tfazio wrote: »
    Using Millers 70% rule and wanting to keep my value betting frequency close to the 1/3 value 2/3 bluff recommended on the flop, on this particular flop I have so many value hands that I need check 99 - TT. On a different flop the value range might change including pp below tp.
    refer to millers 1%.

    yeah...you and I are going to discuss this quite a bit in the mastermind =)
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    @SplitSuit any thoughts on my progression and logic used as I moved through the hand?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    Ninjah wrote: »
    @SplitSuit any thoughts on my progression and logic used as I moved through the hand?

    Looks alright to me. Do you think he would call A-high hands on the turn too? If not, could you double barrel more often?
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    James, sounds ominous should I be worried ;)
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    @SplitSuit any thoughts on my progression and logic used as I moved through the hand?

    Looks alright to me. Do you think he would call A-high hands on the turn too? If not, could you double barrel more often?

    I think there may be some but not many. AQ and some floated BDFD from the flop. Think he probably 3bets AK pre. Otherwise I think his turn calling range is mostly made up of straight draws and weak pairs. My concern with betting a high frequency on the turn was that he's calling so light and a lot of rivers would give this player type no reason to find a fold there either and I think I have a decent amount of bluffs in my range already. Is this a valid concern?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    tfazio wrote: »
    James, sounds ominous should I be worried ;)

    Not too worried =)
    Ninjah wrote: »
    I think there may be some but not many. AQ and some floated BDFD from the flop. Think he probably 3bets AK pre. Otherwise I think his turn calling range is mostly made up of straight draws and weak pairs. My concern with betting a high frequency on the turn was that he's calling so light and a lot of rivers would give this player type no reason to find a fold there either and I think I have a decent amount of bluffs in my range already. Is this a valid concern?

    I think you may be giving this player a bit too much credit.
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    @SplitSuit so is the idea is to keep the frequency high because our range is stronger than his range and we can always make our adjustments in position on the river rather than to worry about what may or may not come?
  • SitibenSitiben Red Chipper Posts: 2
    tfazio wrote: »
    James, sounds ominous should I be worried ;)

    Sounds like I should worry too - would be great if you can share your discussion from the Mastermind afterwards on the forum. I was also checking TT-99 on the flop as those hands naturally fell in my "checking" range given that they're not Top Pair +, nor are they good "bluffing hands" type like draws that have strong equity when called & hit.

    James - would you check those against another player type but are making an exception here because of the 'spewy' nature of this player? Or would you pretty much play TT-99 against everyone in this situation?

    Thanks!
    Ben
  • billconklinbillconklin Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Hand#2
    Opening range 14.3% 190 combos
    all prs, suited aces, suited double B'Ways; SC's 76+, AQo+
    (Miller's basic early opening range.) I do not use the 1% concept at this time.

    Flop: Jh, 8s, 4c -- 59%, 76 combos

    actions planned:
    Check TP (12 combos), 2nd pr (TT-99) 12 combos, ,
    Polarize CBet range:
    Upper layer: Overpairs QQ+ (18 combos), sets (9 combos)
    Lower layer: A2-A5 suited (15 combos), BDFDs (26 combos.)

    Turn: Jc Board now Jh, 8s, 4c // Jc -- 79%, 55 combos

    Bet over prs including AA; Quads, sets
    Check TT, 99 for SDV, Ck FD, OESD
    Bluff A2s-A5s

    River: 3s Board now Jh, 8s, 4c, //Jc,//3s 81%, 45 combos.

    Bet Quads, all trips (no bad kickers) Over prs QQ+, all $140. All for Value.
    No bluffs left.

    Odd that Super Spewy check called Pre-flop, Flop, and Turn.
    I loosely gave him, initially, a pretty broad range based on the description.
    He must have Something in his hand, to have done that.
    He's capped, thus leaving all that out.
    Maybe a medium pr or a failed Str8 draw?
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Are we going to get into multiway pots at all? In my game its a limp fest so hard to open with most of this range here. They told me last night we are always scared when u grab chips. I said you are scared but still call? That didn’t make sense to me. I have been trying to only raise and be aggressive but a lot of these players are unstudied and just won’t to win pots how does this affect my strategy?

    PREFLOP: RANGE (18%)( 230 combos)
    22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, KJo+

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE(90%of open range)( 206 combos)
    22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, KJo+
    my whole range is coming along for a bet in hopes to end it it here

    Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = yes, AQ = Yes I am Cbetting my whole range


    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (49%-of previous range)(101 combos) Is this to nitty
    88+, 44, AJs, A8s, A4s, AcQc+, AcTc-Ac9c, Ac7c-Ac5c, Ac3c-Ac2c, KJs, KcQc, KcTc, QJs, QcTc, J9s+, AJo+, KJo

    Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT = yes, Draws = Bet


    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (53%-of previous range)(54 combos)

    Would you bet $140 with your entire range = No
    Trips good Kicker Yes
    Overpaid yes
    Bluffs no I took almost all my bluffs out MUBS I guess. Leak Alert



  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    Yes, there are MW pots in the book =)
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    @SplitSuit so is the idea is to keep the frequency high because our range is stronger than his range and we can always make our adjustments in position on the river rather than to worry about what may or may not come?

    This question made me ponder another question of "when do we actually look to lower our frequency?" Since we had opponents on opposite ends of the spectrum on these first two hands, my initial thought was to adjust my frequency when in reality I should be sticking around 70% because my range vs. these two types of opponents are different. So when do we actually look to lower frequency? Is it primarily based upon board texture and occasionally deception of our range?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    @SplitSuit so is the idea is to keep the frequency high because our range is stronger than his range and we can always make our adjustments in position on the river rather than to worry about what may or may not come?

    This question made me ponder another question of "when do we actually look to lower our frequency?" Since we had opponents on opposite ends of the spectrum on these first two hands, my initial thought was to adjust my frequency when in reality I should be sticking around 70% because my range vs. these two types of opponents are different. So when do we actually look to lower frequency? Is it primarily based upon board texture and occasionally deception of our range?

    Board texture and runout potential are huge elements, and of course position.

    But at some point your betting frequency may get so low that you decide to say forget it and just check everything and work to build a proper check/defend strategy instead (especially important OOP)
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    Makes sense. Thank you!
  • EculwellEculwell Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: RANGE (13.7%)( 182 combos)
    AA-88, AK-A9s, KQ-KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, AK-ATo, KQo, KJo, QJo, JTo

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE (75%-of previous range)(120 combos)

    Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = Yes, AQ = Yes

    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (55.9%-of previous range)(57 combos)

    Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT = Check, Draws = Check

    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (99.7%-of previous range)(54 combos)

    Trips with good kicker - Bet 140
    Overpair - Bet 165
    Bluffs - Check
  • DieterDieter Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: RANGE (18,9%)( 250 combos)

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE (68,6%-of previous range)(155 combos)

    Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = No, AQ = Yes

    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (44,8%-of previous range)(65 combos)

    Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT =/, Draws = Bet

    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (78,5%-of previous range)(65 combos)

    Trips with good kicker - Bet 140
    Overpair - Bet 140
    Bluffs - Bet 170 (around 15% of my range is a bluff here)
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,970 -
    Hey guys. Just a HU that I recorded my answers for this entire hand and am releasing the video in the PRO Membership. It won't be out for awhile - just letting you know my exact answers are coming in time =)
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Hey guys. Just a HU that I recorded my answers for this entire hand and am releasing the video in the PRO Membership. It won't be out for awhile - just letting you know my exact answers are coming in time =)

    Are you planning on doing this for every hand over a lengthy period of time?
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Elowel, poor james
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Hey guys. Just a HU that I recorded my answers for this entire hand and am releasing the video in the PRO Membership. It won't be out for awhile - just letting you know my exact answers are coming in time =)

    Are you planning on doing this for every hand over a lengthy period of time?

    That stinks. My 3 week membership just expired. I signed up to do Jonathan Little Pokercoaching site. I like the content on the Pro so still up in the air. Just need to show some profit and get off this roller coaster. I have to many leaks.

  • TaintBDTaintBD Red Chipper Posts: 12
    PreFlop 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo, QJo 13.1% 174 combos

    Flop: 88+, 44, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+, KQo, QJo 70% 120 combos
    Great cbet board

    Turn: JJ+, 88, 44, AJs, AcQc+, AcTc, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo, QJo 43% 52 combos
    Club brings another draw so I think spewy continues to chase

    River: JJ, 88, 44, AJs, KJs, QJs, JTs, AJo, QJo 52% 27 combos
    I just bet my nutty hands because there is not much worse he is calling with unless he puts me a a missed draw bluff, which I do not believe since Flop was rainbow
  • sp1ke36sp1ke36 Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: RANGE (14.3%)(190 combos)

    My Preflop Range:
    AA-22,AKo-AQo,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE (37%-of previous range)(64 of 173 combos)
    My Flop CB Range:
    AJs,A8s,KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s,
    [66.67]AA-JJ,88,44[/66.67]
    [66.67]AhKh,AcKc,AsKs,AhQh,AcQc,AsQs,AhTh,AcTc,AsTs[/66.67]
    [66.67]Ah9h,Ac9c,As9s,Ah7h,Ac7c,As7s,Ah6h,Ac6c,As6s[/66.67]
    [66.67]Ah5h,Ac5c,As5s,Ah4h,As4s,Ah3h,Ac3c,As3s,Ah2h,Ac2c,As2s[/66.67]
    [66.67]KhQh,KcQc,KsQs[/66.67],[50]TT-99[/50]

    Would you CB or Check:
    JT?: JdTd, JsTs, JcTc two of the combos have bdfds which make them strong enough to bet.
    99-TT?: 12 combos. Lets bet half and check half
    AQ?: We have 3 combos that are bdfds. I think we can bet 2 and check 1.

    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (56%-of previous range)(33 of 58 combos)
    AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs,Ac8c,Tc9c
    [66.67]AA-JJ,88,44,AcKc,AcQc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac3c,Ac2c,KcQc[/66.67]

    AA?: Bet
    TT?: Check (Probably Check/Calling)
    Draws?: Betting all flush draws(one happens to be a straight and flush draw)

    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (56%-of previous range)(19 of 33 combos)
    [66.67]JJ,88,44[/66.67],[50]AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs[/50],[33.33]AA-QQ[/33.33]
    bluffs: Ac8c,KcQc,AcKc,AcQc

    Would you bet $140 with your entire range? I would bet $140 with all FH & Quads.
    Trips with good kicker?: Bet $140 50%, Check 50% with intention of calling.
    Overpair: Bet 50%, chk/call 50%
    Bluffs?: A super spewy guy may call A8 with 77,66,55,A4,A3.
    I'll include 4 combos for river bluffs Ac8c,KcQc,AcKc,AcQc
  • sp1ke36sp1ke36 Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Hey guys. Just a HU that I recorded my answers for this entire hand and am releasing the video in the PRO Membership. It won't be out for awhile - just letting you know my exact answers are coming in time =)

    Always the opportunist. :p
    Will they be available for those that don't have a PRO Membership? I think a run through of how you'd do this type of analysis using flopzilla would be extremely helpful. I'm kinda lost.
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: RANGE (34%)( 454 combos)

    :Jh :8s :4c

    FLOP: RANGE (66%-of previous range)(266 combos)

    Would you CB with: JT = Yes, 99-TT = yes, AQ = Yes

    :Jc

    TURN: RANGE (68%-of previous range)(162 combos)

    Are you likely to bet or check with: AA = Bet, TT = bet, Draws = Bet

    :3s

    RIVER: RANGE (70%-of previous range)(114 combos)

    Bet trips with good kicker? yes
    Bet overpair? Yes
    Bluffs? Yes, missed draws under Q-high
  • Patrick LawlerPatrick Lawler Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    wow...I don't know why but I feel like i butchered this one... doing these exercises makes me realise how much i rely on line reads/tells to inform my actions.

    Opening Range: 14%
    Combos: 190
    Range: 22+, A2s+, AQo+, 76s+, All suited Broadway

    :Jh :8s :4c

    Flop Cbet range: 100% of the previous range
    Combos: 167
    Range: 22+, A2s+, AQo+, 76s+, All suited Broadway

    In this situation I would be cbetting 100% of my previous range as I would expect the BB's range to be very wide. I'm expecting to fold out his absolute junk and get called by a wide enough range that I will still have range advantage if called. Also as the opponent is super spewey I would be confident in continuing a lot of my range if he check raises.

    I would Cbet with JT, 99-TT and AQ

    :Jc

    I would bet the turn with 38.9% of hands from the previous range.
    Combos: 65
    Range: AA-88,44,AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s,AcKc,AcQc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac3c,Ac2c,KcQc,KcTc,QcTc,9c8c,8c7c,7c6c

    Once I the villain checks again on the turn I would typically not put him on a Jack as I would expect a lose/spewey player to be betting flop with top pair.

    I would AA, TT and the OESD's and flush draws.

    :3s

    After the third check from the villain I put him on a slow played Jx or a missed straight draw.

    So I bet 75% of my previous range on the river this is everything except the Ace highs and no made hands.
    Combos: 49
    Range: AA-88,44,AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs,Ac8c,Ac3c,9c8c,8c7c

    With:
    Trips good kicker - Same sizing
    Overpair - I would size smaller, maybe $100, and be prepared to fold to a raise.
    Bluffs - To be honest I rarely ever bluff rivers, I realise this is possibly a leak but it's a product of playing at my regular game as very few players will fold to river bluffs (if they have gotten this far they will generally call wide 'to see what you have').

    Am I too wide by the time i get to the river? I just don't see any need to drop too many combos throughout this hand as played.
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: RANGE 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,97s+,65s+,ATo+,KJo+,Qjo
    (%-form 21.0%)(# combos 278)

    :JH: :8S: :4C:

    FLOP: RANGE 88+,A5s+,A3s-A2s,KJs,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,65s+,ATo+,KJo,Qjo
    (%-of previous range 78.5%)(# combos 194)

    :JC:

    TURN: RANGE AA-88,44,AJo,KJo,QJo,JTo,AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs-J9s,T9s,AcKc,AcQc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac3c,Ac2c,QcTc,Tc8c,9c8c,9c7c,8c7c,7c6c,6c5c
    (%-of previous range 52.6%)(# combos 92)

    :3S:

    RIVER: RANGE AA-JJ,88,44,AJo,KJo,QJo,JTo,AJs,KJs,QJs,JTs-J9s
    (%-of previous range 64.1%)(# combos 59)
«13

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