Hand 4: XX on Q93

NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭✭
3-bet Opening: 88 worst pair, JTs worst Broadway, including A4s and A5s as bluffs for balancing.
This is a total of 130 combos for a 10% open. I would be more likely to call with A9 or less and smaller suited connectors.

FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h

Down to 115 combos after the flop. Betting top pair+, flush draws, OESD, and all ace high. This is a total of 106 out of 115 combos for a 92% frequency. I am betting with a higher frequency here because I want to continue to rep a strong hand from the 3-bet preflop.

TURN: :7h

Down to 106 combos after the turn. Betting combos of AQ, KQ, flushes and sets. I am also betting combos of AJo and AKo with the :Ah . This is a total of 73/106 combos for a 69% frequency.

River: :4s

Down to 72 combos after the river. I would shove sets, flushes, all nut flush blockers, KK, AA, and AQ as well as my original A4s and A5s bluffing hands. This is a total of 55 out of 72 combos for a 76% frequency.
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Comments

  • billconklinbillconklin Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    Pre-flop Range 10%, 132 combos
    77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo
    A2s-A5s for bluffing purposes
    Without the bluffs this is a 10% 3-betting range.
    I didn't make any effort to balance it further with further polarization. Maybe I should have. Whatcha think?

    FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h
    Range 41%, 48 combos
    99+ (includes 2 set possibilities,
    AQo, AQs, KQo, KQs
    6 NFDs, (all are AXh Includes A2-A5h)

    TURN: :7h
    Range 100% of flop range, 48 combos
    Nut Flush x6
    99+ (includes 2 set possibilities,
    AQo, AQs, KQo, KQs

    River: :4s
    Same as Turn,
    Range 100% of turn range, 48 combos
    Nut Flush x6
    99+ (includes 2 set possibilities,
    AQo, AQs, KQo, KQs

    His calling PF caps his range so I'm comfortable with top pair and over pairs.
    If he has the Ace of hearts and another heart, then I won't have any flush draws, so if I do have the NFD, of course I go all in with that too.

    I don't have any missed draws or bluffs left. I had attempted to, but the small suited aces were wrecked by being in a flush draw, so all I had to go with were hearts. I suppose I could have added some suited str8 draws, or left in the small AX hands other than hearts.

    I'm not always sure whether to follow what Flopzilla gives me or branch out. Maybe we can have some discussion of that.



  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭✭
    You've got to find a way to include some bluffs in my opinion. If you take this line without bluffs, opponents will frequently fold and you'll never get paid off. Also, on the flop I see that you're only betting 41% of your hands. If you're checking behind with everything else, are you folding all of these hands on the turn of your opponent leads out? If so then it makes your folding frequency very high against an opponent that you have a range advantage on. Just some things to think about.
  • billconklinbillconklin Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    The problem is that while I use Flopzilla, I'm doing something wrong. Each time I am pressing the green button, so all my bluffs disappear. That was the set of ranges I showed you. There was nothing left to "fold" out of the ranges.

    so I have redone the hand with this set of combos:
    88+, ATs+, AJo+, A2s-A5s, KQo, KQs, KJs, QJs, JTs, and T9s.
    That is a range of 11%, with 148 combos.
    With the flop of Qh, 9c, 3h, then 57 combos went thru the filter (43%) so am I correct, the remainder represent bluffs? If so that would be 57% of my range.

    So when he checks the flop, I suppose I should bet all the filtered hands plus all the bluffs -- that entire range of 148 combos. Is this correct?

    He calls, and the 7h appears on the turn.

    I guess you will think I am a complete boob, but do I just bet that whole range again? Judging from your entry you did something different than that. But I couldn't tell what hands you got rid of. I still have the same combos with the red button on, with 69 combos this time, making it thru the filter (54%) of 128 combos, but some of my combos have now made the nut flush. A total of 57 combos are for TP or better including made flushes, and 12 are for the nut flush draw, totaling 69.

    I feel like I have a tiger by the tail! I cant figure how to taper my range at all. When do I get rid of some of the combos in that initial range? And which ones?

    I looked at your version. I wasn't able to reconstruct all of it from the info you gave.

    I know it really is asking a lot to ask you to jump into this and help me, but I really have no other way to figure it out. If you could just give me a clue, I'd be very grateful!

    Bill
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't think I could explain it well because I'm still learning Flopzilla myself but if you go on YouTube and search Flopzilla filters you can find some helpful videos.
  • DieterDieter Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Preflop I'd 3bet a 8.14% range. 108 combo's.
    JJ+, A2-A5s, ATs+, KQ, AJo+

    FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h

    Bet TP, FD, set & check my A-high since villain is spewy and unlikely to fold.
    Continuation range = 62.5% - 96 combo's.

    TURN: :7h

    Bet my Qx & nfd. At this point versus a spewy villain I don't think I have any clear bluffs
    Continuation range 85%
    51 combo's

    River: :4s
    At this point I don't have many bluffs again; I either have a flush, tptk or overpair. All three I'm betting vs this particular villain. The only hand I check back here is JJ which was still in my c-range ott. So that's 88.2% & 45 combo's. Eventhough I could probably get villain to pay off my JJ with a hand like TT.
  • SachaSacha Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Maybe Splitsuit can chime in here because I also am having some issues with the green button. And is there a way to find out the " percentage of previous range" on flopzilla without using a calculator?
  • jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    I start off with a similar 3Bet range: 8.75%, 116 Combos (Ed Miller 3bet vs Loose range): 99+, AKs-AJs, A5s-A2s, KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs,AK,AQ & 97s,75s (as bluffs)

    After flop I'm betting nearly my whole range, 96%, 98/102 combos - dropping only: weak pairs and no made hands.

    On the Turn, I deviate from you guys, in that I don't like that 7H, as I think a spewy guy had a lot of flush draws and 2 pairs at this point, and I don't think he's folding a lot - so why bluff?

    I'm at: 54.2%, 52 / 96 combos I'm betting, basically TP+ and NFD and 2nd NFD

    River: I don't like his turn call. I'm not sure what to think by his check. On one hand:
    1) If he puts me on a lot of overpairs and 2 pairs, then i'm gonna check a lot of rivers, in which case if he has a big hand he should bet out for value. So his check denies him having a big hand.
    2) On the other hand, I've bet every street, and he might just think I'll bet again with my whole range, so he can check raise river.

    I think I'm only shoving my Flushes. 8/52 combos, 15%
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Worst pair 88
    Worst broadway KJo
    Calling with A5s and suited connectors
    Range 88+, A5s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AJo+, KJo+
    13% 170 Combos

    :Qh :9c :3h

    Top Pair Bet
    Flush Draw Bet
    Ace-High check
    Range 88+, A5s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AJo+, KJo+
    still 89% of previous range 151 com
    :7h

    Hands double Barrel all flushes
    Qx with no heart bet again this is a scare card and should get folds if V is not on a draw
    Nut Flush Draw no pair again barrel for same reason as above and have some equity with the draw or even the Ace could help
    Bluffs would be my JT KT A5-A8 not hearts KJo 98s T9S all hands with some equity if called
    Range 99+, A5s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KJo+
    93% of previous range 141 Combos

    :4s

    Bet all 3 streets
    one pair yes AA KK AQ KQ check 99-JJ
    missed draws only way to win is fire here but in real life don’t know if I pull the trigger
    Bluffs same as above have to jam to win I think
    Range JJ+, ATs+, Ah9h-Ah8h, Ah6h-Ah5h, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, AQo+, KQo
    67% of previous 94 combos
  • benlong10benlong10 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Thanks for your posts guys. Learning a lot from you. Comment on my thoughts as you see fit. I will speak my mind here but don't mistake that for unwillingness to listen.

    Hand 4: I start this hand PF widening my normal 3-bet range a little bit to isolate this spewy player while on the button, but I don't see why I should take extremely speculative hands into unnecessarily larger pots. I can just call with those speculative hands and use my playing advantages to pick my spots on flops, turns, and rivers in initially smaller pots. Remember, villain is not folding very often and he's spewy and pays off hands with marginal ones. In contrast the strategic purpose of a 3bet with speculative hands is to generate mistake folds from better hands held by tighter players. I widen my 3-bet range here a little bit not to generate mistake folds, but because I have the button and I want to isolate a weaker player who will pay me handsomely when I hit my hands. As such, it makes little sense here to 3 bet with QJ and suited connectors or even A2-A5, despite the latter's blocking power. Save those hands to 3 bet tighter opponents who might mistakenly lay down AJ, KJ, 88, 99, etc. In this case let's just 3bet isolate this opponent with mostly premium hands and call with the more speculative hands. With a little patience he should pay us off in both cases.

    As such my range is 88+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+. That's 5.88% of hands (78 combos). Worst pocket is 88. Worst broadway is KQs.

    FLOP Qh 9c 3h

    I am betting all top pairs and flush draws. We are crushing a spewy players' range at this point with top pairs, so that's a no brainer. With flush draws we aren't betting to generate folds, as we have no fold equity against a spewy player. What we are generating is a little deception. What we want is a flop call followed by a turn check from our opponent. We then can take a free card on the turn, then get paid on the river if we hit. This is an old limit hold em strategy that is essentially equally useful against spewy NLHE opponents who call as often as limit hold em players. Side note: We may have to play our top pair the same way sometimes to balance our range.

    I am checking behind with A-high, as I have very little fold equity and no hand against a player with a very wide range at this point. No need to push marginal situations with these players. Just be patient and let them pay your big hands off later.

    Flop range is 99+, AQs, AhKh, KQs, AQo, or 59% of previous PF hands. 46 combos.

    TURN 7h

    I am checking behind many hands like bluffs and nut Ah flush draw no pairs. I have no fold equity from a spewy player. It makes no sense to bet.
    I check 50%, bet 50% Qx no heart. A check seems safer and is ok, but most of my queens (AQ, KQ) are still dominating his range and he will pay me on this street with a heart draw but maybe not on the river if it doesn't come. I just bet enough he doesn't get correct odds to call over the long haul. I'm never paying him if a heart hits so I'm giving no implied odds here. So I like a bet here too as much as a check and would mix it up. Sometimes playing a spewy player is terrifying but betting with your medium strength hands is the way to make value off of them. Sometimes they will just wake up with strong hands and beat your medium hands, but over time they pay you more often than not.
    ONE EXTRA NOTE: I am still betting AA, KK, QQ, 99 even with the flush draw out there. He has to raise before I give a spewy player credit for big hands that beat my premiums.

    My turn range is
    QQ+, 99, AQs, AhKh, KQs, AQo 70% previous range, 34 combos.

    RIVER 4s
    I find it hard to imagine betting all-in here in any situation, but if I did it would just be nuttish hands. In real life, with even my nut hands, I would be betting smaller to disguise my top pair top kicker, overpair, non-nut flush bets. I want the spewy player to continue being spewy and river call me with his weaker range and I want all my river bets to look the same to him. A pot sized all-in bet seems imbalanced so I'd rather bet something like $400 on the river with all these hands. I don't really have any bluffs in my range at this point because I never had any bluff equity with this opponent, so I eliminated them from my range two streets ago. I would never 3 barrel with bluff hands + go all in on the river here against this opponent. NEVER, not even on tilt!!!!.

    So my all-in River range here is QQ, 99, AhKh. 20% of previous range. That's it. 7 combos.

    Thoughts?
  • benlong10benlong10 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Mbehr....if you are only calling pre flop, as you mention, with A5s+ and K10+ etc....then you don't want to put that in your range in this Hand #4, in which you are 3bet raising
  • benlong10benlong10 Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Ninjah and BillConklin.....I noticed you both referenced "adding in bluffs for balancing." What bluffs? This spewy stewie calls with everything. So you should have no bluffs ever, even pre-flop, right? Much less the river when we go all-in. How can we have a bluff here? Our play should be inherently unbalanced towards made/strong hands based on our opponents playing style. Tell me if I'm missing something.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭✭
    Just because he's a spewy player doesn't guarantee that he's calling the river here. By him being spewy, he could have easily called flop and turn with numerous gutshots and OESD and even combos of one heart hands with no pair, all of which missed and make it impossible for him to call a shove. If there is never a possibility of you bluffing in a given spot, that's simply too exploitative in my book. Bluffing is a necessary element, it just requires that you reduce your bluffing frequency vs. certain player types.
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    PREFLOP RANGE: 12%, 158 combos
    FLOP RANGE: 67%, 95 combos (values 63/bluffs 32)
    TURN RANGE: 70%, 66 combos (value 49/bluffs 17)
    RIVER RANGE 74%, 49 combos (value 37/bluffs 12)

    PREFLOP RANGE: 12%, 158 combos
    3-betting: 66 worst pair, JTs worst Broadway
    Call with suited connectors and suited Aces
    66+, KTs+, ATo+, A9s+

    FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h

    FLOP RANGE: 67%, 95 combos
    99+, AQ, KQ, QJs, QTs, A9s, AT, AJ, AK, JTs, KTs, KJs

    TURN: :7h

    TURN RANGE: 70%, 66 combos
    A9-AKhh, KT-KJhh, JThh, 99-AA; AQ, KQ, 50% of AK, AJ, and AT, KJcc, KTcc, JTcc, JTs

    River: :4s

    RIVER RANGE: 74%, 49 combos
    A9-AKhh, KT-KJhh, JThh, QQ, 99, KK, AA, AQ, KJcc, KTcc, JTs, AT, AJ

    Reasoning
    PREFLOP I went with a "depolarized" 3-betting range. Many other posters have pointed out that villain won't be folding much preflop, so we can dump the light 3-bets and replace them with medium strength hands like KQo and QTs.

    FLOP Trying to keep bluffs in there, but the mix is more value heavy. Middle-strength hands like 2nd pair that are often check-back hands now become a bet

    TURN Get value from worse Q-X and 9h-X hands

    RIVER I put bluffs in there like missed gut shots (KJ, KT) and OESDs (JT), but I'm not sure I'd have the balls to bet em at the end.
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    Sacha wrote: »
    Maybe Splitsuit can chime in here because I also am having some issues with the green button. And is there a way to find out the " percentage of previous range" on flopzilla without using a calculator?

    Use the TAB button to toggle between combo count and % of previous range.
  • BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    I found this hand really hard to deal with given the non-detailed description of the villain. Basically all we're told is that they're "very active" and "spewy." So we can assume that their preflop open is pretty wide, but in order to select our preflop range, we need to know how they react to 3bets.

    If they're likely to fold often, we should have a bluff-heavy range. I'd go with JJ+, AQo+, AJs+ for value (60 combos) and about 90 combos of bluffs (SCs, weak aces, some Kx and Qx).

    If we think they'll call with a wide range, we don't want to bluff, so a more linear range like the one Ninjah suggests would be appropriate.

    Our flop play will again vary hugely depending on how much we expect to be raised.
  • dmansendmansen Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    BTN 3bet range vs “spewy lag” 200bb deep: AA-99 (42),AKo (12),AKs-ATs (16),A5s-A2s (12),KQs (4),98s-65s (16)
    Combos: 102
    7.7% of preflop range

    I chose to put suited connectors in my range rather than suited broadway because pairs will often be dominated by their calling range.

    MP2 calls
    Flop: Qh9c3h
    Range: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JJ-TT (12),99 (3),AKo (12),AKs (4),AQs (3),AJs-ATs (8),A5s-A4s (8),A3s (3),A2s (4),KQs (3),98s (3),87s-65s (12)
    Combos: 84

    MP2 checks
    Bet: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JJ-TT (12),99 (3),AQs (3),AhKx (3), AhKh (1),AhJh-AhTh (2),AcJc-AcTc (2), Ah5h-Ah4h (2),Ac5c-Ac3c (3),Ah2h (1),KQs (3),98s (3),8h7h-6h5h (3),8c7c-6c5c (3)
    Combos: 53
    63% of flop range

    Top pair: Bet all
    Flush draws: Bet all including backdoors
    Ace high: Bet AhKx

    I actually think we should be betting slightly less on this board against this villain. Middle cards + flush draw is going to allow him to continue often.

    Turn: 7h
    Range: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JJ-TT (12),99 (3),AQs (3),AhKx (3), AhKh (1),AhJh-AhTh (2),AcJc-AcTc (2), Ah5h-Ah4h (2),Ac5c-Ac3c (3),Ah2h (1),KQs (3),98s (3),6h5h (1),8c7c-6c5c (3)
    Combos: 51

    Bet: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JhJx (3),ThTx (3),99 (3),AQs (3),AhKx (3), AhKh (1),AhJh-AhTh (2),Ah5h-Ah4h (2),Ah2h (1),KQs (3),98s (3),6h5h (1)
    Combos: 37
    72.5% of turn range

    Qx with no heart? Bet all
    Nut flush draw no pair: Bet AhKx
    Bluffs: AhKx,ThTx,JhJx, 9 combos

    Continue betting for value with top pair, overpairs, and sets (we're bet-folding many of the single pair hands). We still have AhKx hands in our range to use for bluffs on the river.

    River: 4s
    Range: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JhJx (3),ThTx (3),99 (3),AQs (3),AhKx (3), AhKh (1),AhJh-AhTh (2),Ah5h-Ah4h (2),Ah2h (1),KQs (3),98s (3),6h5h (1)
    Combos: 37

    Bet: AA-KK (6),QQ (3),JhJx (3),ThTx (3),99 (3),AhKx (3), AhKh (1),AhJh-AhTh (2),Ah5h-Ah4h (2),Ah2h (1),6h5h (1)
    Combos: 28
    75.6% of river range

    One pair: AA-KK
    Missed draws: AhKx,JhJx,ThTx 9 combos
    Bluffs: Just missed draws

    On the river we can bluff quite a bit with our single heart hands. We have tons of value in our range with all the flush combos.

    (my first post in the forum, apologies for lack of formatting)
  • Mr2u53Mr2u53 Red Chipper Posts: 64 ✭✭
    Hand 4
    Button Facing an open bet
    3Betting this guy for the third time I will have to be a little tighter than the other two times.
    Total Combos: 72
    % Form: 5.43%
    PP: 99+ 40 Combos 55.55%
    Suited: AQs+ KQs 12 Combos 16.66%
    Unsuited: AQo+ 24 Combos 33.33%
    Worst Broadway: KQs
    I am more likely to Call rather than 3 bet with Suited Connecters and Suited Aces.
    Flop
    :Qh :9c :3h
    Total Combos: 61
    % Form: 100%
    CB:
    Sets: QQ 99 6 Combos 9.83%
    Over PP: AA KK 12 Combos 19.67%
    Top Pair: AQs AQo KQs 15 Combos 24.59%
    PP Under TP: JJ TT 12 Combos 19.67%
    Flush Draw: AKs 1 Combos 1.63%
    Over Cards: AKs AKo 16 26.22%
    Would I bet or Check with:
    Top Pair: Bet
    Flush Draws: Bet
    Ace High: Bet
    Turn
    :7h
    Total Combos: 37
    % Form: 60.7%
    Bet:
    Flush: AKs 1 Combo 2.7%
    Sets: QQ 99 6 Combos 16.21%
    Over PP: AA KK 8 Combos 21.62%
    Nut Flush Draw: AA AQo+ 9 Combos 24.3%
    Check:
    The rest
    Would I bet or Check with:
    QX No Heart: Check
    Nut Flush with No Pair: Bet
    Bluffs: Bet
    River
    :4s
    Total Combos: 19
    % Form: 86.4%
    All In:
    Flush: AKs 1 Combo 5.26%
    Set: QQ 3 Combos 15.78%
    Over PP: AA KK 12 Combos 63.15%
    Top Pair: AQs 3 Combos 15.78%
    Would I bet or Check with:
    One Pair: Bet
    Missed Draw: Bet
    Bluffs: Bet
  • Briax24Briax24 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    Hand #4: Range: AA-TT,AKo-AQo,AKs-AQs,A5s-A2s,87s,76s (% of form- 6.49%) (Combos: 86)
    My worst pair in my button 3-betting range is TT. AQ is the worst broadway that I 3-bet. I do 3-bet with 87-76s. Against an active opener is should probably open up here a little bit. It may be good to three bet with ATs or KTs. Some of the worse broadway. There is an argument for 3-betting wide here because Villain is spewy and stacks are reasonably deep. What other hands should be considered?

    :Qh :9c :3h

    FLOP: Range: AA-TT,AQo,AQs,AhKh,AcKc,Ah5h,Ac5c,Ah4h,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ah2h,Ac2c,AhKc,AhKd,AhKs,8h7h,8c7c,7h6h,7c6c
    ( % of previous range- 70.5%) (Combos: 55)
    Note: It looks like I’m betting some of the combos of all of the ranks that I 3-bet with.
    Top Pair- I am always betting top pair.
    Flush Draws- I am betting all of these
    Ace High- I bet some Ace high and check some. Betting with backdoor draws, and Checking when back door draws are absent.
    It may be worthwhile to bet everything, I have the Villain calling with many suited broadway and some suited connectors as well as 77+ pre flop. If he calls the 3-bet as wide as I am assuming we may get a fold 50%+.

    :7h


    TURN: Range: AA-QQ,AQo,AQs,AhKh,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah2h,AhKc,AhKd,AhKs (% of Previous Range 64.2%)
    (Combos: 34)
    Double Barreling with:
    Qx no heart- Yes, its thin, our Villain has a flush about a quarter of the time. I think often we can expect a call from worse Q and charge some of Villains single heart equity. JJ, TT, QT,QJ start to think about folding. Though that’s less value for us some of these hands contain hearts.
    Nut flush draw with no pair- Yes Villain is folding probably 30-40% now and we hold blockers to his made flushes. Combined with our real equity I’d say this is pretty good for betting.
    Bluffs- My bluffs are now draws too. At the 2/3 pot sizing it’s tough to auto profit.

    :4s


    RIVER: Range: AA,QQ,AhKh,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah2h,AhKc,AhKd,AhKs
    (% of previous range: 47.1%) (Combos: 16)
    Do we 3 barrel with-
    One Pair: I think I shut down with one pair if it’s AQ (which is the only top pair I have here). Im teetering on the idea of betting KK and I’m definitely betting AA. I think the over pairs can be bet just because Villain so rarely has a flush or two pair (maybe <10-%). He may be folding a lot of top pair but must call sometimes. If spewy means he calls too much then I bet all top pair and KK too.

    Missed Draws: I bet all of these and expect to get looked up by top pair and flushes sometimes but probably less than the ~63% this Villain must call to keep bluffing from being profitable. That said if Villain is more of a calling station it’s pretty close so probably best to shut down the bluffs.

    Bluffs: All of my bluffs are missed draws. This may create some range problems in other 3-bet pots on the river. I get to the river with only 8% misses. Is it best to check back some value hands to more effectively balance my range against better opponents on the river? I’ve read and watched some things talking about a 1-1 bluffing ratio on the river being ideal vs. good opponents.
  • Briax24Briax24 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    @BadFrog1 Spewy gives me the impression that Villain is calling pretty wide pre-flop. Post flop there are some differences between "spewy players" in my opinion. Some are going to the felt with all top pair. Others are calling light flop and progressively tightening up as they reach turn and river. For example they may be more likely to fold weak top pairs but try to make draws because of the raw hand strength. Sometimes they are players who bluff in bad spots and slowplay too much. I'd be interested to hear what your view on spewy is, in some ways that's what this exercise is about.
  • maxpricemaxprice Red Chipper Posts: 1
    Outlier wrote: »
    TURN: :7h

    TURN RANGE: 70%, 66 combos
    A9-AKhh, KT-KJhh, JThh, 99-AA; AQ, KQ, 50% of AK, AJ, and AT, KJcc, KTcc, JTcc, JTs
    ...
    TURN Get value from worse Q-X and 9h-X hands

    Why not bet QJ on the turn to get value from any worse queens and 9h-X hands? After all your betting JJ-TT.
  • gwjones00gwjones00 Red Chipper Posts: 27
    Wow. Are you guys really 3 betting this wide in live settings?

    Maybe it's the stationy games that I play in, or maybe it's MUBs. I'm more likely to call with suited Aces and SCs to keep SPRs high.

    YOUR PREFLOP RANGE
    TT+, AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, KQo, KQs, KJo, KJs, QJo, QJs
    %-FORM 8.3 %
    COMBOS # 110

    Worst pocket that I would 3 bet here is TT
    Weakest Broadway hand: KJo
    More likely to call the $20 with SCs and suited Aces: I’m calling.

    MP1 calls preflop.

    Flop: Qh9c3h. MP1 checks. We bet $100. What am I doing with:
    Top pair: Betting
    Flush draws: Betting
    Ace high: Betting

    This flop smacks most of my 3 bet range. I think I bet my entire opening range.

    YOUR FLOP RANGE
    TT+, AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, KQo, KQs, KJo, KJs, QJo, QJs
    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 100%
    COMBOS # 110

    MP 1 calls. Turn 7h. MP1 checks and we lead for $225.

    Once MP1 calls flop, I’m removing some of my disconnected cards (e.g., KJo without a heart, etc.)

    Double barrel hands:
    QX with no heart?: Yes
    A nut flush draw with no pair?: No, going to take a free card here.
    Bluffs: Depends on what I actually have in my hand (i.e., blockers to straights, flushes that would

    YOUR TURN RANGE
    JJ+, AQs, AhKh, KQs, KhJh, QJs, AhKs, AcKh, AdKh, AsKh, AhKc, AhKd, AhQs, AcQh, AdQh, AsQh, AhQc, AhQd, KQo, KhJs, KcJh, KdJh, KsJh, KhJc, KhJd, QJo
    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 59%
    COMBOS # 65

    MP1 calls. $810 pot. River 4s. MP1 checks. We move all in.

    Do we do this with:
    One pair: There aren’t too many of these in my range. Over pairs, yes. AQ yes. KQ yes.
    Missed draws: Depends on villain. Villain is getting 3 to 1 to call. If he knows what he is doing and understands he only needs to be good 1 in 4 times to call - maybe not.
    Bluffs: See above. The only two airball bluffs in my range are AK and KJ, but I removed those without a heart on the turn.

    YOUR RIVER RANGE
    QQ+, AQs, AhKh, KQs, KhJh, AhKs, AcKh, AdKh, AsKh, AhKc, AhKd, AhQs, AcQh, AdQh, AsQh, AhQc, AhQd, KQo, KhJs, KcJh, KdJh, KsJh, KhJc, KhJd
    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 72%
    COMBOS # 47

    Comments welcome!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I read all of you bet most of your range on the river. But is it really relevant? At this time, with no bet and not C-R (esp. on the turn), we can expect Villain to have mostly busted draws. I don't see him calling 2 streets with a middle or a weak pair, except with an additional draw (like Xx9h, TxTh, 8x8h).
    So, would he really call all-in if he has at best a marginal Q, at worst a busted gutshot T-8 (if reaaaally loose) or buted OESD JT ? => Are we really going to be able to make worst hand call with this river bet all-in ?
  • gwjones00gwjones00 Red Chipper Posts: 27
    Well - the thing this hand pointed out to me is that I have no bluffing range by the river. I think a lot of this is the result of the stationy low stakes (1/2, 2/3) games that I play in L.A.
  • nathanwallace90nathanwallace90 Red Chipper Posts: 4
    Preflop 3 bet range; 99+, J-ATs+, KQo+. This is only 8.5% (112 combos) I think this might be too tight from the button but against a spewy LAG, there really aren't many hands you can bluff with unless you get a really scary flop.

    Flop. Betting 99,KK,AA, JTs, Qx, All heart broadways swell as AQ-K with Hearts. 40% of previous range

    As the pre flop aggressor heads up I would continue 70%+ of the time but getting a lot of calls from a LAG so tightening up my betting range to pot control with speculative hands.

    Turn. Betting 99,KK AA, KT-AKs, AQo+ All with a heart or heartS. 50% of previous range. Looking to shove pretty much every river with all of these.

    Checking back all the Qx and hands with no hearts again for pot control.

    River. Shoving Ace of hearts, KTs+ (hearts) 95% of previous range.

    Checking back 99,KK as if i have either of them, its more likely this guy has an over pair or a missed draw. Either way i am beaten and won't get any value from my bet.

    Don't think my logic for what i want Villian to call with or fold is good enough yet.
  • NuttedNutterNuttedNutter Red Chipper Posts: 44
    HAND #4

    Worst PP to 3bet? 55. I think with the table dynamic and stack sizes involved, if I assume MP1 Spewy Lag is playing between 60-70% of hands then w/ 55 preflop against him at least it's showing I have at least 50% equity.

    Worst Broadway to 3bet? JTs. If the goal is to iso MP1 Spewy Lag playing between 60-70% of hands then again with JTs we have at least 50% equity.

    More likely to call or 3bet w/ SC's and suited Aces? I think in this spot I'd be more inclined to 3bet in position. Firstly, the SB tag is likely going to fold or overcall and if it's the latter then we could deduce that more often than not he's going to have a well defined capped range w/ an overcall, if he 4bet jams then just deal with that and likely let it go.

    The main opponent of concern to me is MP1 Spewy Lag and I'd be trying to iso 3bet ip. Again, if I assume he's playing between 60-70% of hands then even 87s has 44% equity and A2s has 54%. Should we flop well against him should he hit any part of the board he'll likely stack off w/ it.

    RANGE: AA-55,AKo-AJo,AKs-A8s,A5s-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s

    %FORM: 13%
    COMBOS #: 172

    FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h

    TP? Bet for value. I think his range at the moment has plenty of Qxs so we get value from worse Q's. JJ-TT, 9x, 88-44, 22 maybe a 3xs hand like A3s. Plenty of weak and nutted fd's, JTo/s for the OESD and gutshots KJ, KT, J8, T8. I think AA-JJ he jams pf but maybe calls 3bet 50% of the time so not too worried about those. 99, 33 I think even MP1 spewy lag just leads w/ those due to the board making those hands somewhat vulnerable, but maybe 50% of the time he gets tricky and goes for ch/r and anyways those hands only hit like 11% of the time so I believe betting tp here for value/equity protection we're in a decent spot.

    FD's? Bet. The worst FD I have in my range is 8h7h and I figure even against spewy lag if he ch/r I think the best hand he could have is capped at AQ and against it I still have 44% equity so worst case scenario if he ch/jams then even stacking off here with some of the more nutted combos of FD's doesn't seem too bad?

    Also his range contains a lot more worse FD's than mine and are probably never folding should the turn/riv bring another heart so stacks should get in easier at that point. I feel like if I ch/back flop and spewy lag senses weakness he's just gonna bet the turn big and if the turn doesn't improve my hand at that point I'd likely just be ch/calling a likely big bet hoping to hit my flush. JJ-TT, 9xs 88-44, 22, 3xs, might fold even as a spewy lag given the action or peel one street but isn't going to feel that great about continuing on many turns.

    Ace-High? Check. Being that we don't have much fold equity against spewy lag I think it's best to ch back flop. We have some SD value but little equity and not many ways to improve to a monster hand.

    RANGE: AA-55,AKo-AJo,AKs-A8s,A5s-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s
    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 43.9%
    COMBOS#: 68

    T: :7h

    QX No Heart? Bet. I think we are ahead even w/ my worst Q, QTs. I think if he had a big Q like QJ-AQ then he would've likely led turn and plans on just ch/calling with weaker Q's. Still get value from JJ-TT, 9x, 88.

    Nut FD no pair? Check. Only have 30ish% equity, not much fold equity against this opponent. All Q's, JJ-TT, 9x, 88 would continue his flushes just got there and he could be planning to ch/r.

    Bluffs? Check. For the same lack of fold equity reason and likelihood of range continuing to river. The only bluffs I have left are 3 combos of JTs with 22% equity. Not in great shape to hope for a fold or draw to a str8.

    RANGE: AA-QQ,99,AQo,AQs,KQs,QJs-QTs,JcTc,JdTd,JsTs
    %OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 62.7%
    COMBOS #: 42

    R: :4s

    Bet all three streets with:
    One Pair: Bet. QQ-AA. KQs-AQs. I might ch/back QTs-QJs

    Missed Draws? Check. Against this player I don't think many bluffs are getting through as all his Q's are probably still calling JJ-TT, 9x, 88 might fold but against spewy lag but not that often.

    Bluffs? Check.

    RANGE: AA-QQ,99,AQo,AQs,KQs,QJs-QTs,JcTc,JdTd,JsTs
    %OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 92.9%
    COMBOS#: 39

    What does everyone think about the reasoning in my answers? Ty.





















  • ZachAndTiredZachAndTired Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    PREFLOP RANGE: 88+, AJ+, KQ (7.99%-form)(106 combos)
    Worst pocket pair? 88
    Worst broadway? KQo
    Call or raise with suited connectors? Call
    Call or raise with suited aces? Call

    FLOP: :Qh :9c :3h

    FLOP RANGE: 88+, AQ, KQ, AhKh, AhJh (67.4% of previous range)(62 combos)
    Top pair? Bet
    Flush draws? Bet (no naked flush draw in my range at this point though)
    Ace-high? Check

    TURN: :7h

    TURN RANGE: QQ+, 99, AQ, KQ, AhKh, AhJh (71% of previous range)(44 combos)
    QX with no heart? Bet
    Nut flush draw with no pair? Bet (not in my range though)
    Bluffs? Check

    River: :4s

    RIVER RANGE: QQ+, 99, AQ, KQ, AhKh, AhJh (100% of previous range)(44 combos)
    One pair? Bet
    Missed draws? Check (none in my range)
    Bluffs? Check (none in my range)

    I think I may have constructed fairly nitty ranges in this hand.
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: (8.8%-form)(116 combos)
    AA-99,AKo-AQo,AKs-ATs,A7s,A5s-A2s,KQs,JTs,T9s-T8s,98s
    When building this range consider what is the worst pocket pair you would 3bet here. What is the worst Broadway hand you would 3bet here? Are you more likely to call the $20 or 3bet with suited connectors and suited Aces?
    Worst Broadway hand JTs
    worst pocket pair 99
    Are you more likely to call the $20 or 3bet with suited connectors and suited Aces? 3bet

    Flop:
    :QH: :9C: :3H:
    (57.8% of previous range)(59 combos)
    AA-99,AQo,AQs,KQs,JTs,AhKh,AhJh,AhTh,Ah7h,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah2h,Th9h,Th8h,9h8h
    Based upon the exact texture and who MP1 is, what are you going to do with these hand strengths:
    Top Pair? Bet for Value plus protection against flush draw
    Flush Draws? Betting to get paid off if my flush hits
    Ace High? Checking

    Turn:
    :7H:
    (58.6% of previous range)(34 combos)
    AA-QQ,99,JTs,AhKh,AhJh,AhTh,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah2h,AhQc,AhQd,AhQs,Th9h,Th8h,9h8h

    What kind of hands are you going to double barrel with here?
    Flushes, Sets, Overpairs, Nut Flush Draws
    Would you check or bet with:
    QX With No Heart? Check
    A Nut Flush Draw With No Pair? Bet
    Bluffs? No, not against Spewy LAG

    River:
    :4S:
    (91.2% of previous range)(31 combos)
    AA-QQ,99,AhKh,AhJh,AhTh,Ah5h,Ah4h,Ah2h,AhQc,AhQd,AhQs,JhTh,Th9h,Th8h,9h8h
    Given your entire line up to this point, which hands do you end up betting all three streets with?
    One Pair? AA or KK
    Missed Draws? No
    Bluffs? No
  • CubanBCubanB Red Chipper Posts: 104 ✭✭
    Street by street notes on my ranges
    Preflop: BTN vs spewy lag - will 3bet wider with value hands, fewer 3bet bluffs especially since we have been 3betting him repeatedly this session. TAG and UNK in blinds unlikely to come along when we isolate. I think I need to widen my 3betting range here to about 10% or so. This is an area to focus on.

    Flop: Value to bluff ratio of approximately 1:1 - because Villain likely stickier than usual on a semi-coordinated flop. But I did not end up with good bluffing candidates on turn and river, so may need to check back some more top pair-type hands and bluff more.

    Turn: Once the flush card hits, I show up with very few bluffs and most cbetting hands are value; exploitable by good opponent, but could remedy by 3betting wider with more SC's and suited broadways preflop and choosing different Flop cbet mix; should also check back a few flopped FDs vs good opponents

    River: I don't have any air here to bluff with - all hands I've continued with to this point are either there or have SD value, so zero % bluffs here. Big leak. Should probably also be shoving my TP hands here because my "pyramid" is not smooth from the turn to the river here.

    Preflop Action
    3bet Range:99+, AQo+, KQs, AQs+, A2-A6s
    98s, 87s
    100 combos, 7.5% total

    Flop Action
    :QH: :9C: :3H:
    Flop CBet Range:AA-99
    AQo, AQs, KcQc
    A3s, 98s, 8h7h, 8c7c
    AhKh, AcKc
    Ah6h-Ah2h
    Ac6c, Ac5c
    61 combos, 70% of previous range

    Turn Action
    :7H:
    Turn Cbet Range: AA-QQ,
    JcJh,JdJh,JsJh
    TcTh,TdTh,TsTh
    99
    AQo,AQs,KcQc,98s
    AhKh,Ah6h-Ah4h,Ah2h
    45 combos, 75% of previous range

    River Action
    :4S:
    RIver CBet Range:
    AA-QQ,99
    AhKh, Ah6h-Ah4h,Ah2h,9h8h
    24 combos, 40% of turn range

  • MattPMattP Red Chipper Posts: 98 ✭✭
    On the river, I'm not betting missed draws, or bluffing against a loose spewy player. I've lost plenty of pots where players like this can't fold second pair or top-pair weak kicker. Doesn't seem +EV to bluff someone who can't fold.

    I'd bet AA, KK, AQ... and any stronger hands. Otherwise, it's check-fold. Does that make me a Nit?
  • Laurence CLaurence C Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    The problem is that while I use Flopzilla, I'm doing something wrong. Each time I am pressing the green button, so all my bluffs disappear. That was the set of ranges I showed you. There was nothing left to "fold" out of the ranges.

    so I have redone the hand with this set of combos:
    88+, ATs+, AJo+, A2s-A5s, KQo, KQs, KJs, QJs, JTs, and T9s.
    That is a range of 11%, with 148 combos.
    With the flop of Qh, 9c, 3h, then 57 combos went thru the filter (43%) so am I correct, the remainder represent bluffs? If so that would be 57% of my range.

    So when he checks the flop, I suppose I should bet all the filtered hands plus all the bluffs -- that entire range of 148 combos. Is this correct?

    He calls, and the 7h appears on the turn.

    I guess you will think I am a complete boob, but do I just bet that whole range again? Judging from your entry you did something different than that. But I couldn't tell what hands you got rid of. I still have the same combos with the red button on, with 69 combos this time, making it thru the filter (54%) of 128 combos, but some of my combos have now made the nut flush. A total of 57 combos are for TP or better including made flushes, and 12 are for the nut flush draw, totaling 69.

    I feel like I have a tiger by the tail! I cant figure how to taper my range at all. When do I get rid of some of the combos in that initial range? And which ones?

    I looked at your version. I wasn't able to reconstruct all of it from the info you gave.

    I know it really is asking a lot to ask you to jump into this and help me, but I really have no other way to figure it out. If you could just give me a clue, I'd be very grateful!

    Bill

    If you want to include the "bluffs" in Flopzilla before clicking on the green button, select the filter "No Made Hand". This will include all your bluffs in your range.

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