1/2 Missed Value?

Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
edited November 2014 in Live Poker Hands
The table had been going for just about an hour and was pretty uneventful until I lost over half my stack to a set over set situation. I managed to win the side pot against an open ended straight flush draw that missed to keep some chips.

Two hands later this hand happens: I pick up :Ks:Kd UTG +2 with a $82 stack

UTG (100) Limps/Calls
UTG+1 Limps/Folds
Hero Raises to $15
SB ($80) Calls
BB Folds

FLOP: :Kh:Qc:8d pot $49

SB check
UTG check
Hero check

I almost always would bet this board. But with a short stack, position, and having smashed the flop I opted to give my opponents a free card with the plan to shove any turn.

TURN: :Kh:Qc:8d , :Qs pot $49

SB $13/Tank Fold
UTG Fold
Hero All-In $67

With a weak turn bet by the SB do I just call and shove the river? How do I double up here?


  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are specifically representing a queen or sometimes air to your opponent here with this line; probably your best play, aside from a standard cbet, will be derived from knowing what his small turn bet might mean, and playing accordingly.
  • JackofClubsJackofClubs Red Chipper Posts: 52
    From one of the site founders I would like to see a little more detail concerning this post. The post indicates nothing much has happened at the table for an hour so how would a player know what the small turn bet means?
    I also am having trouble with my game figuring out when to be aggressive and when to be passive when I hit the flop - so I almost always c-bet for about
    two thirds of pot whether I hit the flop or not.
    Thank you to the site founders for making this site available to us - I am learning from the posts and responses.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm sure a site founder will eventually chime in, but I do see I have been a little vague here.

    1) Cbetting, in general, keeps one's range wide; this becomes a problem for OP's line on the next street.
    2) The check flop, raise turn line is incredibly strong. The player doing this has more information and yet is choosing to put more money in; this will concern any villain.
    3) A weak bet is, in general, just that. The OP says it's weak, but his action indicates that he hopes it means his opponent has a queen. So in essence, he is not sure.
    4) However, if the villain has weak hands taking a stab and bluffs in one category of hands, and a queen in the other, the action hero should take is obvious: call. This is because the queens will always felt themselves, and the bluffs and marginalia will not continue except on the river.
    5) Further, because the villain is in the SB, hero can always put the money in later. Shoving turn might be better if the roles were reversed.
    6) Despite all this, after an hour of play, you should know a lot about your opponents, including having a specific guess about what the little turn bet meant.
    7) In general, slowplay is best done with a consistent story, and the OP blew his cover, so to speak, with the feign weakness/get all the money in line.
  • JackofClubsJackofClubs Red Chipper Posts: 52
    Thank you Persuadeo - I appreciate the detailed response - it will help me.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    Hahaha. I appreciate your thoughts as well - especially because this was my hand! Hahaha
  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    I would just bet the flop. It's always easier to get people to dream on their hands on the flop than on the turn. Not a ton of cards can come off on the turn to get someone interested--almost all of the cards will be undercards to the K and Q. Since you're short-stacked, I think you might get your flop bet called by queens and also possibly by AT and AJ.
  • Ruxton_AtheistRuxton_Atheist Red Chipper Posts: 152 ✭✭✭
    IMO over your poker lifetime, you are bleeding EV by not topping off your stack after the cooler. If you are not rolled for the game, get up and walk away. If you are consistently getting outplayed post-flop, change tables or buy in short to begin with. Ed is correct: bet the flop. But the real missed value here is opting to play short and waking up with cowboys.

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