River shove double blockers

Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭
edited November 2014 in Live Poker Hands
Effective 800
UTG1 opens $25
*He been opening way too much

Hero 3bet $75 :Ad :Ts
BB cold call
UTG1 fold

:Kd :9d :6s
Check
Check

Turn :Td
BB Bet $85
Hero call

River :5s
BB Bet $100
Hero shove

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Need deeper context to really know how villain thinks you might play. On the surface, you rep a bluff perfectly, maniac, because most players will use this k high board to cbet all their flush draws, or will raise turn to get all the money in on the river easily, so you are polarized to a weird line, which should lead to more calls, not less. His bet sizing on the river, he should realize, looks very weak and if he folded incorrectly after inducing it's his own fault, and not on account of the line, as you have simply money whipped a weaker player.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭
    Do you like a Turn shove?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you can have aqdd here and not have cbet, i would like a small turn raise and all in on river. That would look very valuish to me and i would have to let go of ak or qq or other equivalents. Since he can also have 999 on the turn but not the river (i assume you never thought he would fold that hand), i don't think he is ever folding that hand, no matter what line you take, so i don't see the need to leave so much behind just so you can lay the hammer down so hard when it's a blocker, not a pot odds, move by you. However, i say this all without knowing much context and if you have been setting up overshoves all night, then your line is probably pretty good and scary.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭
    I mean I could have more hands than just AQdd

    Hmm... Idk I'm debating if I like the turn or river shove better..
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the turn shove may look like you picked up the draw. Of course you can have other hands, but what's most relevant in villain's mind has to be the flush, which is why you are using the blockers in the first place, so if you can have axdd here, i like the river shove better.

    Overall i find it a hard line to stomach and would end up calling, in a vacuum. Some of this discussion is futile, however, as the weak bet on the river gives you all the more reason to shove, obviating some of the handreading nuance.

    Hope it worked.
  • JackofClubsJackofClubs Red Chipper Posts: 52
    As in my previous post I am trying to improve my hand reading so that is the first thing I do when I read a post.
    I think a player would 4 bet AA so do you think a player would cold call
    $ 70 with a range wider that 66+, AQs+, KQs, AKo?
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    If you're making this play at all I like river shove better. Turn shove reps your hand perfectly in a lot of players eyes, while river shove looks more like you were trying to get one more bet from him.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭
    Def not wider than that lol Jackofclubs
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,947 -
    Big Owl wrote:
    If you're making this play at all I like river shove better. Turn shove reps your hand perfectly in a lot of players eyes, while river shove looks more like you were trying to get one more bet from him.

    But if you had a hand that was trying to get another bet from him (say KK, TT, etc.), would you really just call the turn and risk letting any diamond, Q, J, etc. roll off?
    My new book lays out the playbook for AK. Grab your copy and start Optimizing Ace King!
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe sometimes
  • fountourisfountouris Red Chipper Posts: 14
    Very nice and interesting hand. I love your play.

    And very interesting question : what is better here the turn or the river shove...

    It is a close decision putting this hand to CardrunnersEV to it could be helpful.

    I tend to mix it up against the same opponent.

    I haven't done any caclulations but I "feel" that going to the river has more EV ( and more variance ) than shoving the turn.

    Sometimes a bad opponent could hit his a straight on the river and call a shove without beeing afraid a lot about higher straights and a possibe flush. . Humans tend to have selective memory, my selective memory is sick of getting called on the river by stupid hands while holding crazy blockers.

    But when I am sure that the specific opponent is going to bet/ fold a made straight on the river and bet /fold or check/fold the most combos of his range then the river shove is obviously much better and I don't have to mix it up. I always go to the river for the maximum profit.

    However against an opponent who bluff catches a lot and check/calls a lot of river cards whithout the nuts I prefer shoving the turn.

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