Hand 8: Adjusting incorrectly?

Tim WilliamsTim Williams Red Chipper Posts: 23
I think this was the first hand from the book where I had one of those 'aha' moments, and I realised because of the way I was playing that it would be easy as hell to range me down, I'm looking for any advice here, because I think I feel a confusion when against an aggressive player that gets my emotions working and my logic deferring.
I've done this hand twice, and come up with different results on both occasions, and looked at my hands on both those occasions and figured the ranging was too tight.

My starting range:
Raising 77+, AT+, 45s+, A9s+, A9+ A5s, A6s, KT, KQ, KJ, KTs,KJs,KQs, QTs

Calling weaker PPs, other Aces
Calling AK, Raising QQ, Calling TT
so raising is 15.7% form, 208 combos

STEP 2: THE LAG 3BETS ME
So this is where I feel that my adjustments aren't necessarily right. A lot of my range is falling out, such as anything under Aj, which is folding, 77 and below pairs and to be honest I folded pretty much all of my face cards, except for KQs; obviously all of my SC's are folding. I call every single Ace in my range at this point, which is Aj up, so my raising range is literally
TT+, hoping to break him on an Aced flop, and my pairs 88+ are raising with intent to fold another raise, excluding the QQ+
This leaves me with 46 combos and (46/208=22% of range to C range)

This is concerning to me because I wonder if by doing that raise I've now made myself an easier read. anyway...

STEP 3: , AhTd7c FLOP
literally everything I have left, which is 88+ and KQs is checking this flop to induce bets.

STEP 4: LAG RAISES - probably calling my entire range except KQs -
88+..........90% range carring over, containing 40 combos

STEP 5: TURN 3d
I check, and get bet into and I fold. The only hands that I'm calling or raising here are completed sets, I,e TT or AA.
So 83.3% of my previous range folds which includes
40 combos (some how)

Apart from the weird thing with the combos in that last part there, my biggest concern is how I'm playing this LAG. As said, all Aces are calling to hopefully be lined up against weaker aces (I think he'd do this squeeze movie with Aj or even At), where as my bigger hands are raising for value, and the 88-tt are doing so to hopefully get a fold right there. From this point forward I'm checking to induce bets from worse hands or to fold unmade hands, except for some of my pairs which I figure I'd give three streets too...but then again against a lag, is it correct to think he won't barrel 3 streets against someone who acts like that?

But yeah; divine revelation: I must be seriously readable in these spots

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,984 -
    edited June 2016
    First, congrats on noticing this issue! This is EXACTLY what the workbook is useful for!

    The 'issue' is most prevalent between steps 1 and 2. When you have aggressive 3bettors behind you you cannot have such a large foldv3bet %. Simply because once they get wind that you are folding that often, they will only 3bet you more and more. Creating a hellish session to say the least.

    Which leaves you with a couple options:
    1. Open a little tighter so that you can contend more often against the 3bet
    2. Continue vs the 3bet more often so that nobody can make easy outright profit against you

    Sometimes the answer is a little big of both - but the incorrect answer is to keep folding 80% when facing a 3bet =)
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    PREFLOP: RANGE
    AA-77,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,AKs-A9s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,
    J9s-97s,T9s-65s
    (%-form 14.8%)(# combos 196)
    I figure I want to raise with a pretty wide range here, hoping to isolate the terrible player, so most Broadway, middle and high pairs and some suited connectors. Removed lower pairs in case of multiple callers.

    The BB 3bets to $100, MP2 and CO fold, you 4bet to $250.

    Range is now AA-QQ,AKo,AKs-AQs
    (%-of previous range 19.4%)(# combos 38)

    I know this seems tight but that's how I play. I'll explain my reasoning at the end

    :Ah :Td :7c

    FLOP: RANGE
    AA,QQ
    (%-of previous range 23.7%)(# combos 9)
    I'm betting my top pairs and my KK, so the only thing to check is my set and QQ which I think are in bad shape. When he bets small I am definitely calling my set and calling my QQ in case he has unpaired hole cards and shows further weakness.

    :9d

    TURN: RANGE
    QQ
    (%-of previous range 66.7%)(# combos 6)

    at this point it's pretty simple, I'm not folding my set of Aces so if I am folding it's my QQ at this point.

    I can't fill this thing out an pretend, at the table, I would have a wider range and make these bold moves. I played 5 hours last night and don't remember seeing any 4bets preflop. I remember one hand where the loosest player at the table 3bet a TAG to $50 (1/2 NL), the TAG called. when the hand was over they both had AK, the TAG's was suited. He didn't 4bet AKs. He's probably only 4betting AA and KK. I don't see having to have this wide 4bet range because other people are going to 3bet or 4bet me light and take my money. Usually when I see a 4bet that gets shown down, they are premium cards. I know this example is $2/$5 and I have no experience at $2/$5 but everything I have read says the skill level is not that much higher.
  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited June 2016
    @Acesalad I totally hear you. I struggle when working through these hand histories whether to fill it out exactly as I would play it or how I think I "should" play it. I end up doing a mixture of both.

    I do think that trying out the "should" way might open some doors or create "aha" moments without actually playing at the table. Take the example you gave of the loosest player 3-betting the TAG and the TAG only called with AKs. Now this doesn't tell us what the TAG would do with AQ or AJ, but unless he's a good TAG, how exploitable is he possibly in this spot!? Imagine if you 3-bet two napkins vs a TAG and get him to fold AQ or AJ?

    This reminds me that even though we can win at $1/2 and $2/5 playing ABC poker, there are many things that even most winning players do that are still very exploitable.

    What if you began 3- and 4-betting light occasionally at $1/2? That's kind of where I'm at: still playing and approaching the game as you prescribe, but wondering if I don't see a glimmer on the horizon of a different, even more profitable way to play.

    My main issue with the preflop 4-bet is its small sizing and awkward SPR it creates postflop. Villain is getting a pretty good price to call ($150/400) or 2.67:1, plus he will have position. In this case, we could have just 4-bet to $350-$400. It's costing us a little less $ overall compared to 4-betting to $250 and betting $200 on the flop; plus, it sets a more straightforward flop decision. The larger 4-bet gives our bluffs a bigger chance of getting through, makes it looks like we will play for stacks, and puts more pressure on villain.
  • BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Which leaves you with a couple options:
    1. Open a little tighter so that you can contend more often against the 3bet
    2. Continue vs the 3bet more often so that nobody can make easy outright profit against you

    Which of those would you pick here? I'm leaning toward option 2 since getting heads up with the fish is so profitable, and even an aggressive 3better will only raise a small minority of the time.

    What do you think a correct opening range is here? I'm thinking about going almost as wide as my standard button opening range.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    I like punishing guys w/ a 3b% of 15% or so by 4-betting w/ all pairs, suited aces, suited Broadway's, AJ, etc. Not that I always do it (because I'm cowardly) but you're usually getting minimum of 60% fold equity, and the hands we 4bet will have enough equity when called to cover our asses.
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    Outlier wrote: »
    @Acesalad I totally hear you. I struggle when working through these hand histories whether to fill it out exactly as I would play it or how I think I "should" play it. I end up doing a mixture of both.

    I do think that trying out the "should" way might open some doors or create "aha" moments without actually playing at the table. Take the example you gave of the loosest player 3-betting the TAG and the TAG only called with AKs. Now this doesn't tell us what the TAG would do with AQ or AJ, but unless he's a good TAG, how exploitable is he possibly in this spot!? Imagine if you 3-bet two napkins vs a TAG and get him to fold AQ or AJ?

    This reminds me that even though we can win at $1/2 and $2/5 playing ABC poker, there are many things that even most winning players do that are still very exploitable.

    What if you began 3- and 4-betting light occasionally at $1/2? That's kind of where I'm at: still playing and approaching the game as you prescribe, but wondering if I don't see a glimmer on the horizon of a different, even more profitable way to play.

    My main issue with the preflop 4-bet is its small sizing and awkward SPR it creates postflop. Villain is getting a pretty good price to call ($150/400) or 2.67:1, plus he will have position. In this case, we could have just 4-bet to $350-$400. It's costing us a little less $ overall compared to 4-betting to $250 and betting $200 on the flop; plus, it sets a more straightforward flop decision. The larger 4-bet gives our bluffs a bigger chance of getting through, makes it looks like we will play for stacks, and puts more pressure on villain.

    @Outlier The bottom line is I have a lot of work to do on my 3betting before I start getting out of line with my 4betting. The other night in my regular 1/2 NL home game, where we all know each other tendencies pretty well, I had one of the loosest players in the game directly to my right raise to $30 in a starddled pot. I 3bet him to $70 with TT. Everyone else folded and he called. The flop came with two overcards and he went all in for $120. I don't know if anyone here can find a call there. He has to be bluffing 46% of the time to make this a profitable call and even though he is loose I don't think he bluffs it that often, plus, unless he called my 3bet with an pair lower than mine he probably has a fair amount of equity. On the plus side I don't think I would have even made this 3bet a few month ago, so I feel I am making progress with my 3betting game.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,984 -
    BadFrog1 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Which leaves you with a couple options:
    1. Open a little tighter so that you can contend more often against the 3bet
    2. Continue vs the 3bet more often so that nobody can make easy outright profit against you

    Which of those would you pick here? I'm leaning toward option 2 since getting heads up with the fish is so profitable, and even an aggressive 3better will only raise a small minority of the time.

    What do you think a correct opening range is here? I'm thinking about going almost as wide as my standard button opening range.

    I lean towards option 2 almost always now a days
  • Tim WilliamsTim Williams Red Chipper Posts: 23
    With more hindsight and assessment after these hands I figure you pretty much carry almost all of it and duke out onwards from there. Just don't get iso'd before the flop against this guy!
  • GregGreg Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    BadFrog1 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Which leaves you with a couple options:
    1. Open a little tighter so that you can contend more often against the 3bet
    2. Continue vs the 3bet more often so that nobody can make easy outright profit against you

    Which of those would you pick here? I'm leaning toward option 2 since getting heads up with the fish is so profitable, and even an aggressive 3better will only raise a small minority of the time.

    What do you think a correct opening range is here? I'm thinking about going almost as wide as my standard button opening range.

    I lean towards option 2 almost always now a days

    My main adjustment here is to move more hands into my preflop calling range.
    My isolation range is 15.1% and my 4 bet range is only 3.32%. I 4 bet a small polarized range.
    But my calling range is 4.98%-QQ-TT,AQo,KQo,AQs-AJs,KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs
    So I'm am continuing 55% oop verse a lag. I'm thinking i should add more weak hands that i'm folding into my 4 bet range?

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