6max - JJ multiway

NikosNikos Red Chipper Posts: 117
Preflop i mostly 3b JJ but often call UTG o/raises. After the raise and call I couldn't see coming over the top being all that good so i went for the setmine vs two strong ranges.

On the flop it's possible i should've led out, i didn't - was hoping for a c-bet from the CO to pounce on.

line check please?

Hero (MP): 101 BB
CO: 126 BB (VPIP: 30.56, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
BTN: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 14.86, PFR: 9.46, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 78)
SB: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 14.43, PFR: 10.31, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 99)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.53, PFR: 12.88, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 274)
UTG: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 24.24, PFR: 15.15, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 36)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J :spade J :club

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB, CO raises to 15.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 12 BB, Hero calls 12 BB

Flop: (48 BB, 3 players) J :heart T :heart 3 :heart
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (48 BB, 3 players) K :diamond
UTG bets 23 BB, Hero raises to 85.5 BB and is all-in, CO raises to 110.5 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 63 BB and is all in

River: (305.5 BB, 3 players) 2 :heart

UTG shows K :heart A :club (Flush, King High)
CO shows Q :spade A :diamond (Straight, Ace High)
Hero shows J :spade J :club (Three of a Kind, Jacks)

UTG wins 295 BB

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just watched a split suit video on something similar. I think it will help.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Here is another one, but the line is a little different. I think yours is closer to the first video.
  • NikosNikos Red Chipper Posts: 117
    edited June 2016
    thanks austin, i hadn't seen the first one. I can't really say i find this similar to the hand i posted though.. Mainly because i hardly considered folding (which appears to be the theme in both vids) my hand postflop and in fact it was me who pushed.

    Basically my concerns are:
    a) do you ever consider folding pf? equally, do you ever come over the top? these players are both pretty unknown to me.

    b) i know i prefer the x/r on the flop, but does anyone consider this a spot to lead?

    c) least likely, do you ever call the turn rather than shove?

    I'm not bothered with losing the pot, just my line overall. i think i'm quite happy to get it in there..
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    I would normally lead bet/fold on this flop. I like your thinking of c/r but no one bit. At these stakes I don't think anyone is folding the Ah or Kh so check can be fine as well. I think the lead at least makes him worry about the Ah. What are you doing if you flop the flush here? I like your play just got out drawn
  • purdrewpurdrew Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Hey Nikos, interesting hand. I didn't watch the videos Austin posted, but here are my $0.02.

    a) I'd probably play the hand pre exactly the same way you did. It does kind of beg the question, 'if you aren't willing to 3-bet JJ, what are you 3-betting with?' Now say you did 3-bet, and faced a 4-bet from CO, I think you can relatively safely fold JJ pre. And that may be the move, because even though it is an UTG open, JJ is still a very good hand that does well against a UTG open. It's not always TT+ and AQ+. You also remain uncapped by 3-betting.

    b) I would have led here. I think a lot of worse hands will call or raise and I'm happy to get it in on the flop. You're basically behind two combos - :Ah:Kh & :Ah:Qh . I say those two combos based on what happened pre. The UTG raise is probably not :8h:9h (or similar), nor is the CO 3-bet. Overpairs with a heart, and AhBx hands are calling or raising. These hands are definitely in both opponents' ranges. Lastly, SPR is under 2 so you're in stack-off mode with top set even though the board is a little disheartening.

    c) If you call the UTG and face the CO shove, and assuming that UTG calls the shove, it's break-even to call off with your equity to the full house if you think you're behind. It's a high variance spot, one I might avoid if I called UTG and faced the shove. I don't think I'd get to this spot often though since I'd be betting/raising/jamming flop. Between call/call and jam, I probably choose jam, but I'm not happy when the CO overjams.
  • NikosNikos Red Chipper Posts: 117
    edited June 2016
    thanks guys

    Well, with that kind of flop and SPR my money would get in the middle most probly so possibly makes little diff anyway.. But I feel that leading pretty much gives my hand away, i mean i don't think i'd ever lead with a drawing hand here (x/r big draws i think and call the flushes?), but it'd be possible with one i want to protect like sets and two-pair. So I kinda feel an x/r has more chances to win an extra odd bet i guess.. A strong donk might even push nittier AK (in anyone's range) out too soon..? anyway overall, I have the feeling that postflop the hand played itself out really..

    @purdrew:
    I used to 3b JJ vs all positions but i'm now trying to only do that vs the looser UTGs. Im hardly an expert, but the idea is that vs standard UTG opens i will not call 4bets with JJs but as you said I still feel I can play reasonable well postflop with it.. So my 3b range vs UTG is pretty much QQ+ (sometimes even KK+) for value and then i throw in more Axs and SCs even small pocket pairs (i think that last one is not that good, i might have to drop that..). So my value part i plan to stick it in with, then muck the rest to a 4b.

    thanks for your thoughts!

    ps: disheartening.. lol
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The bottom set in splitsuit video was similar if you listen to splits advice. Yes, hero folded and shown a straight, so he made a good fold. However, out equity in the hand if you start to include hands like AT, AJ, maybe 1 or 2 flush draws than we are crushing and split suggest going with your hand. I was never indicating you should fold.

    Ryan Fee talked about never cbetting in a squeezed pot unless you have a plan to barrel the turn. In order to get the most money into the pot i like your line with x\r flop and if not bet the turn. A lot of his Ahkx will bet this flop and you can get it in.

    Calling the squueze is also probabaly good idea. Split has another video with calling a squueze with JJ. If you check some of my post you can actually back raise in this spot with JJ. I posted a hand where I did it with TT. I've done it in my live games with AK as well.

    I don't mind a flat pre vs utg. Vs squueze unless they have nitty stacks im calling or backraising. Sample size is small so 30\11\0 doesn't mean anything really.

    Unfortunate turn.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    Looks standard. Donk lead has merit otf, especially on this texture, but positionally a CR is standard here. NH.

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