The AK phenomenon:

osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
I just recently bought James Sweeney's Hand Reading Lab and in the videos he is constantly taking AK out of villains range because "they would have 3-bet AK". The problem I find is that that is not the case in my game. In my game AK is not played in a uniform manner. You will see a guy limp AK, then flat a raise preflop, then check call all the way down on a king high board. But, the next time he gets AK he will make a big raise preflop and then go all-in on that same king high flop.
And this isn't just one guy, this is common in my game. It seems people get scared when they have AK, they have no idea how to play it so they pick one of about ten ways to play it at random. Because of this I literally believe that AK is always in someone's range. No matter how the hand has been played, no matter what's on the flop, turn or river, no matter the action on any street, I am never surprised to see AK at the showdown.

Maybe you think I'm crazy, but pretend for a moment I'm not. How would you deal with hand reading if you could never remove AK from someone's range?

Comments

  • blasterblaster Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    I'm just gonna go with you're crazy.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    You just add it into the # of hands you're behind. Obviously it hurts your equity w/ a medium-strong TP, etc.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Definitely not crazy.

    Vs ep if its not multiway im flatting. If its multiway im squeezing.

    If they raise MP or later im 3 betting as well.

    Hell earlier i folded it preflop because UTG opened $30 and he is a bit of a nit with his pfr. Its always JJ+ and thats it. Never even AQ or AK. He limps AQ so i made easy fold. He showed QQ.

    So it really depends. 3 bet, flat, squeeze, and some times just fold.

    Keep it in their range until you have more history.
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Keep it in their range until you have more history.

    The problem is I have years of history with these people (small room in a small town) and AK is always a possibility. Just try doing hand reading work in Flopzilla without ever getting rid of AK. You will see AK will be a major thorn in your side.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Osgobo -- while I appreciate this is an "AHA" moment for you, most people who have played enough w/ passive weak players realize this and include AK in ranges. Pretty standard IMO.

    It usually only comes into play when you get raised. If they're check calling it's most often a tiny part of their range.
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Osgobo -- while I appreciate this is an "AHA" moment for you, most people who have played enough w/ passive weak players realize this and include AK in ranges. Pretty standard IMO.

    It usually only comes into play when you get raised. If they're check calling it's most often a tiny part of their range.

    OK fair enough,, but in every video in the Hand Reading Lab he is just removing AK as a matter of course (because "they would 3-bet") and that would be suicide in my game.
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    osgobo wrote: »
    The problem is I have years of history with these people (small room in a small town) and AK is always a possibility. Just try doing hand reading work in Flopzilla without ever getting rid of AK. You will see AK will be a major thorn in your side.

    Is this $1-$2 or $1-$3? Is it $2-$5?

    Quite frankly I don't understand your complaint: You seem to have bad players in your game. You should celebrate. Try to find their patterns and exploit them. if you have years of history with these players then you might be able to read them well from experience.

    First of all: Ask yourself why do you 3 bet with AK? I think you know the answers. You three bet to win the pot immediately, or to isolate, or to simply beat the rake when you have the potential for a big hand.

    But one reason you should 3-bet with AK is so that you don't have to face a multi-player pot where a lot of people are set-mining with 22 and 33 or trying to catch a flush or straight with 56 suited. If they are flatting with AK then you can beat them with 33 or 45 suited on a board that comes K 3 2 rainbow.

    Do these guys and gals limp with AK? Or will they only flat AK in front? Do they play AK in the same way they play TT or 99? Do you find any pattern at all? If you can find a pattern with an individual player you can exploit it?

    Are you writing about individual players or is your experience with players in your game in general? I find in many games, at many tables, in many places there are social norms. You should be looking to exploit those norms.

    In the long run, if you have a history with these folks, it is better to think about them individually. You might find that some players play AK one way (they might even limp in with AK) and some players play AK another way....

    If you have the Workbook or @SplitSuit 's Hand Reading Lab you must already take hand histories. If so your opponents are used to you writing things down. If you are like me you are often the only one at your table doing that.

    Select a player and simply take down everything about that player. Any player who annoys you will do. Take down every hand he plays, what he bets and when he gets to show down what he has. Take notes. Always. Every hand the player plays. If you have been playing with these players for years try to remember every hand you played with them. But keep doing this. If you can find a pattern you can exploit it.

    It would take a pretty smart player, who actually "randomly" flats, limps, 3-bets, etc. with AK, without some heuristic. They would have to develop a polarized limping and flatting range. I doubt your players are this smart.

    Let me also say that if they are playing this way with AK they are also playing this way with a lot of other hands. In other words they are not getting their chips worth from hands like AQ suited and maybe even some pairs. This means that if you have a good read on them occasionally you can open up the bottom end of your range and bet into the top end of their range and they will let you. It may feel like they are trapping you but it gives you the opportunity to trap them.

    I know, easier said than done. But part of my point here is that @SplitSuit assumes that the players are at least playing with some plan to maximize profit. If your players are playing less rationally than SplitSuit assumes then you can find the play to exploit them.

    The other possibility is that they are really smart. I know a guy that sometimes 3-bets AQ and sometimes doesn't. He has a heuristic and he has the same heuristic with 97 suited and a lot of other high and low hands. This means you don't know what he is 3-betting. There a lot of good players who do that at the upper levels.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Osgobo -- I think against people w/ standard-tight 3bet % (6% or so), you can rule it out because they'd often be 3betting w/ it -- which I'm guessing is the logic being applied in vids. But most people in our games are not aggro enough even to 3b AK. There is no hard and fast rules, and I think any instructor would agree. Adjust based on your game.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    you are not crazy.
    I know many, many Vs that do not 3-bet AK.
    I've even seen some Vs flat a pfr with AA.

    assuming that every V plays the same way is a good way to get stacked.

    the way you adjust for this is you use a "multiplier" in your hand-reading.
    say the flop is :KS: :7C: :3S:

    well, when you include AK in his range, you'd say to yourself ... he probably 3-bets 60% of the time with AKs - so you would then multiply the remaining 3 suited combos by 40% - and that leaves V with 1.2 combos of AK in his range.

    you might also do the same with all unsuited combos as well...

    make sense?
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    kagey wrote: »
    you are not crazy.
    I know many, many Vs that do not 3-bet AK.
    I've even seen some Vs flat a pfr with AA.

    assuming that every V plays the same way is a good way to get stacked.

    the way you adjust for this is you use a "multiplier" in your hand-reading.
    say the flop is :KS: :7C: :3S:

    well, when you include AK in his range, you'd say to yourself ... he probably 3-bets 60% of the time with AKs - so you would then multiply the remaining 3 suited combos by 40% - and that leaves V with 1.2 combos of AK in his range.

    you might also do the same with all unsuited combos as well...

    make sense?

    All you have to do is count all combos of AK, which is 12 OTF w/ a K on board. I wouldn't discount them any if villain is weak passive.

    Maybe a better reg only flats 25% of time w/ AK which means 3 combos, etc.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file