Parallel Ranges

boyd148boyd148 Red Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
I understood escalating ranges but I'm not getting parallel ranges. Splitsuit gave an example of :As :Qd and :Jh :Jc . How are these two hands parallel?

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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    Dirtymoose nailed it :)
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    I tell people that in deep stacked games if you are willing to play AQo then you should be willing to play Q9s, but nobody believes me.

    I have never come across this term "parallel ranges" but since I started playing with Equilab and Flopzilla and various board textures I've been trying to find what I've been calling to myself "equivalencies" in ranges. I do this so I can expand or contract my own range in interesting ways in certain circumstances.

    So for instance if you are willing to play KTo from the button you should also be willing to play K6s from the button. As a matter of fact I would argue that with deep stacks you might prefer K6s to KTo. I'm not saying that K6s and KTo work in exactly the same way; I am saying that if you are willing to accept the risks and probabilities with one you should be willing to accept the risks and probabilities with the other.

    @SplitSuit , is what I'm doing here when I look and compare how any two cards may work with various kinds of flops and board textures (what I'm calling "equivalencies") similar to "parallel ranges?" Or am I just crazy?

    Simply for the expansion of the conceptual landscape you are introducing I can't wait until I get to your "Lab." But first let me get through your "Workbook."
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    P.S. @SplitSuit

    The above also seems relevant to our frequencies in various ways. I was listening to your podcast on leaks and then the next day I came across a comment by Janda: He said, (I'm paraphrasing from notes):
    In some sense, the only way we can discover our deepest and most relevant leaks is by looking at what we do with our entire range. By looking at our range we can avoid the common problem of misidentifying where our leaks occur. It may seem to us that our leaks are occurring on the River but in reality the origin of the leak may occur with how we have decided our range on the Flop.

    For me looking for these "equivalencies" have shown me that what I thought were "two strong" cards (for instance AQo) may not be as strong as I thought. Because in many circumstances if you are willing to play AQo you should be willing to play K9s and A7s.

    I'm saying that we come to the games we play with certain prejudices about ATCs; these cards "look" big and and those cards "look" small. We have preconceived notions, mostly based on our everyday misconceptions of risks and probabilities. But those prejudices have no basis in the actual risk factors of playing those two cards as opposed to the other two cards. When we actually do the math we discover interesting things that our minds didn't let us see. So we can discover on a deeper level our own parallel ranges that are not influenced by cognitive bias.

    The really important questions with "equivalent" probabilities of two cards, is how you play them and when you play them and how you make your plan around them.

    Sorry, this may not be the thread for these particular reflections, but discovering a new concept has always made me happy.
  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    It's fine to reflect Jerry. One thing tho, don't get to hung up on "balance", low stakes players that notice these sort of thing or few and far between.

    It's good to work on some outside the box things, but balance at a 1/2 game, is almost a waste of time. You can play purely value hands and always get paid off.

    Don't try and balance just for the sake of balancing.
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    It's fine to reflect Jerry. One thing tho, don't get to hung up on "balance", low stakes players that notice these sort of thing or few and far between.

    It's good to work on some outside the box things, but balance at a 1/2 game, is almost a waste of time. You can play purely value hands and always get paid off.

    Don't try and balance just for the sake of balancing.

    Yes, I agree. Something else Janda said in the same place applies here (Paraphrasing from my notes):
    You will always make more money exploiting your opponents than trying to balance your ranges. Theory is what you fall back on when you have no other clue on what to do.

    But I find it useful to play around a little and see what kind of difference actually makes a difference.

    Yet, your warning to me needs to be delivered over and over again. At a 1-2 game often I don't think enough and often I overthink. Sometimes just playing straight forward, is less fun, but more profitable.

  • boyd148boyd148 Red Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    When you look at the hand matrix in flopzilla, AJ and KQ run parallel to each other. Just as an example. AT and KJ are also parallel.

    He's trying to tell you that if someone open AT, they "probably" open KJ as well. They are similar in hand strength.

    These two examples make sense to me but I am still unclear as to how AQo and pocket jacks can be called parallel. Looking at the matrix, they do not appear even close to analogous to me.
  • boyd148boyd148 Red Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    Also, I really wish someone had not marked this post as answered as I am the op and the question hasn't been answered for me.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    boyd148 wrote: »
    Also, I really wish someone had not marked this post as answered as I am the op and the question hasn't been answered for me.

    my bad - I meant to hit 'agree' on DirtyMoose's post and accidentally marked it as the answer (only mods and the original poster (you in this instance) can do that). So you can mark any answer you like more the official answer when you've decided =)
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -
    boyd148 wrote: »
    These two examples make sense to me but I am still unclear as to how AQo and pocket jacks can be called parallel. Looking at the matrix, they do not appear even close to analogous to me.

    If someone were to open AQ, I'd expect them to also open JJ.
    If someone were to open JJ, I'd expect them to also open AQ.
    If someone were to flat an open with AQ, I'd expect them to do the same with JJ
    And vice versa.
    If someone were to 3bet JJ for value, I expect they likely do the same with AQ
    And vice versa.

    In this way, they are parallel since the lines people take with both hands preflop are essentially the same in most instances
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    SplitSuit wrote: »

    If someone were to open AQ, I'd expect them to also open JJ.
    If someone were to open JJ, I'd expect them to also open AQ.
    If someone were to flat an open with AQ, I'd expect them to do the same with JJ
    And vice versa.
    If someone were to 3bet JJ for value, I expect they likely do the same with AQ
    And vice versa.

    In this way, they are parallel since the lines people take with both hands preflop are essentially the same in most instances

    I've been thinking about this idea for a couple months now. As I said, I've been calling this idea "equivalencies." Merely having a better conceptual label for it is very helpful.

    To get a little deeper it seems to me that some people are willing to 3-bet AQs but not AQ offsuit. JJ and AQs are played the same preflop and AJs and AQ off are played the same.

    There are these little distinctions that thinking players seem to make. Sometimes they are quirky; sometimes they are overthought (my tendency), and sometimes they are thoughtful differences that make a difference, to use the information theory tautology for such increments.

    @SplitSuit , I find the very fact of your conceptualization a difference that makes a difference.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,030 -

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