JJ on T97 OOP 5-way

MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
edited June 2016 in Live Poker Hands
Stacks range from 60BB-120BB. Hero has 100BB. CO is an aggressive-fish, BTN is more of a calling station but also makes betting errors. All villains involved running w/ VPIP 50-75%.

Hero: :Jc :Jh

UTG limps, Hero raises 5BB, call x3, fold x4, UTG calls

Flop: :Ts :9s :7c (25BB)

SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets 13BB, BTN calls 13BB, fold x2, Hero raises 95BB All-In

The obvious play is to continuation bet here (and stack off depending on who raises, calls, etc.), but despite the potential of giving free cards in a dangerous multi-way dynamic, I was trying to give some weight to the fields "range advantage" here (persuadeo's blog has been influencing my thinking some -- for better or worse) and while I was happy committing here OTF given the right circumstances, I really didn't love having to play a turn on this board OOP if I just got flatted by one or more villains, so a CR vs a couple spewy players behind me seemed logical.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Ha. Well, it's exactly what I would have done, adjusting bet sizing for opponents' stacks, for better or worse, as well. We block J8 and checking on this board will almost always induce a bet. Villains' ranges are apparently ridiculously wide to support this, our check raise looks well ahead, we can force draws to commit at a worse price, and we were likely not folding to these opponents barring worsening texture.

    We're most worried about the CO, as the button is incentivized to raise his value against the board, and by x/r we punish his over call while getting in the money ahead vs the range of the aggressive CO's lead.

    Here's a messy range featuring just a few unlikely slowplays by the BU that screw us over. Our equity is even better if we take Monad for his word and give them the ridiculous preflop VPIP he assigns them. I account for the Aggro CO by having him lead even some gutshots.

    Board: Ts9s7c
    Equity Win Tie
    UTG+1 41.56% 39.68% 1.88% { JhJc }
    CO 34.61% 32.40% 2.21% { 88, TdTh, TdTc, ThTc, 9d9h, 9d9c, 9h9c, 7d7h, 7d7s, 7h7s, A8s, K8s, Q8s, 86s, KsQs, AsJs, KdJd, KsJs, QdJd, QsJs, AdTd, AhTh, AcTc, KdTd, KhTh, KcTc, QdTd, QhTh, QcTc, JdTd, Ad9d, Ah9h, Ac9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc9c, Jd9d, Td9d, Th9h, Tc9c, Jd8d, Js8s, Td8d, Th8h, Tc8c, 9d8d, 9h8h, 9c8c, As7s, Ks7s, Td7d, Th7h, 9d7d, 9h7h, 8d7d, 8h7h, 8s7s, As6s, Ks6s, 7s6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, 86o, AdTh, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTh, AsTc, AcTd, AcTh, KdJs, KhJd, KhJs, KsJd, KcJd, KcJs, KdTh, KdTc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTh, KsTc, KcTd, KcTh, QdTh, QdTc, QhTd, QhTc, QsTd, QsTh, QsTc, QcTd, QcTh, Qd9h, Qd9c, Qh9d, Qh9c, Qs9d, Qs9h, Qs9c, Qc9d, Qc9h, JdTh, JdTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, Jd9h, Jd9c, Js9d, Js9h, Js9c, Jd8h, Jd8s, Jd8c, Js8d, Js8h, Js8c, Td9h, Td9c, Th9d, Th9c, Tc9d, Tc9h, 9d8h, 9d8s, 9d8c, 9h8d, 9h8s, 9h8c, 9c8d, 9c8h, 9c8s, 9d7h, 9d7s, 9h7d, 9h7s, 9c7d, 9c7h, 9c7s, 8d7h, 8d7s, 8h7d, 8h7s, 8s7d, 8s7h, 8c7d, 8c7h, 8c7s }

    BU 23.83% 21.83% 2.00% { 88, A8s, K8s, Q8s, 86s, KsQs, AsJs, KdJd, KsJs, QdJd, QsJs, AdTd, AhTh, AcTc, KdTd, KhTh, KcTc, QdTd, QhTh, QcTc, JdTd, Ad9d, Ah9h, Ac9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc9c, Jd9d, Js8s, Td8d, Th8h, Tc8c, 9d8d, 9h8h, 9c8c, As7s, Ks7s, Qs7s, Js7s, Td7d, Th7h, 9d7d, 9h7h, 8d7d, 8h7h, 8s7s, As6s, Ks6s, As5s, Ks5s, As4s, Ks4s, As3s, As2s, AdTh, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTh, AsTc, AcTd, AcTh, KdTh, KdTc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTh, KsTc, KcTd, KcTh, Kd9h, Kd9c, Kh9d, Kh9c, Ks9d, Ks9h, Ks9c, Kc9d, Kc9h, Qd9h, Qd9c, Qh9d, Qh9c, Qs9d, Qs9h, Qs9c, Qc9d, Qc9h, JdTh, JdTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, Jd9h, Jd9c, Js9d, Js9h, Js9c, Td8h, Td8s, Td8c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Tc8d, Tc8h, Tc8s, 8d7h, 8d7s, 8h7d, 8h7s, 8s7d, 8s7h, 8c7d, 8c7h, 8c7s }

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Ha. Well, it's exactly what I would have done, adjusting bet sizing for opponents' stacks, for better or worse, as well. We block J8 and checking on this board will almost always induce a bet. Villains' ranges are apparently ridiculously wide to support this, our check raise looks well ahead, we can force draws to commit at a worse price, and we were likely not folding to these opponents barring worsening texture.

    We're most worried about the CO, as the button is incentivized to raise his value against the board, and by x/r we punish his over call while getting in the money ahead vs the range of the aggressive CO's lead.

    Here's a messy range featuring just a few unlikely slowplays by the BU that screw us over. Our equity is even better if we take Monad for his word and give them the ridiculous preflop VPIP he assigns them. I account for the Aggro CO by having him lead even some gutshots.

    Board: Ts9s7c
    Equity Win Tie
    UTG+1 41.56% 39.68% 1.88% { JhJc }
    CO 34.61% 32.40% 2.21% { 88, TdTh, TdTc, ThTc, 9d9h, 9d9c, 9h9c, 7d7h, 7d7s, 7h7s, A8s, K8s, Q8s, 86s, KsQs, AsJs, KdJd, KsJs, QdJd, QsJs, AdTd, AhTh, AcTc, KdTd, KhTh, KcTc, QdTd, QhTh, QcTc, JdTd, Ad9d, Ah9h, Ac9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc9c, Jd9d, Td9d, Th9h, Tc9c, Jd8d, Js8s, Td8d, Th8h, Tc8c, 9d8d, 9h8h, 9c8c, As7s, Ks7s, Td7d, Th7h, 9d7d, 9h7h, 8d7d, 8h7h, 8s7s, As6s, Ks6s, 7s6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, 86o, AdTh, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTh, AsTc, AcTd, AcTh, KdJs, KhJd, KhJs, KsJd, KcJd, KcJs, KdTh, KdTc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTh, KsTc, KcTd, KcTh, QdTh, QdTc, QhTd, QhTc, QsTd, QsTh, QsTc, QcTd, QcTh, Qd9h, Qd9c, Qh9d, Qh9c, Qs9d, Qs9h, Qs9c, Qc9d, Qc9h, JdTh, JdTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, Jd9h, Jd9c, Js9d, Js9h, Js9c, Jd8h, Jd8s, Jd8c, Js8d, Js8h, Js8c, Td9h, Td9c, Th9d, Th9c, Tc9d, Tc9h, 9d8h, 9d8s, 9d8c, 9h8d, 9h8s, 9h8c, 9c8d, 9c8h, 9c8s, 9d7h, 9d7s, 9h7d, 9h7s, 9c7d, 9c7h, 9c7s, 8d7h, 8d7s, 8h7d, 8h7s, 8s7d, 8s7h, 8c7d, 8c7h, 8c7s }

    BU 23.83% 21.83% 2.00% { 88, A8s, K8s, Q8s, 86s, KsQs, AsJs, KdJd, KsJs, QdJd, QsJs, AdTd, AhTh, AcTc, KdTd, KhTh, KcTc, QdTd, QhTh, QcTc, JdTd, Ad9d, Ah9h, Ac9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc9c, Qd9d, Qh9h, Qc9c, Jd9d, Js8s, Td8d, Th8h, Tc8c, 9d8d, 9h8h, 9c8c, As7s, Ks7s, Qs7s, Js7s, Td7d, Th7h, 9d7d, 9h7h, 8d7d, 8h7h, 8s7s, As6s, Ks6s, As5s, Ks5s, As4s, Ks4s, As3s, As2s, AdTh, AdTc, AhTd, AhTc, AsTd, AsTh, AsTc, AcTd, AcTh, KdTh, KdTc, KhTd, KhTc, KsTd, KsTh, KsTc, KcTd, KcTh, Kd9h, Kd9c, Kh9d, Kh9c, Ks9d, Ks9h, Ks9c, Kc9d, Kc9h, Qd9h, Qd9c, Qh9d, Qh9c, Qs9d, Qs9h, Qs9c, Qc9d, Qc9h, JdTh, JdTc, JsTd, JsTh, JsTc, Jd9h, Jd9c, Js9d, Js9h, Js9c, Td8h, Td8s, Td8c, Th8d, Th8s, Th8c, Tc8d, Tc8h, Tc8s, 8d7h, 8d7s, 8h7d, 8h7s, 8s7d, 8s7h, 8c7d, 8c7h, 8c7s }

    You can take me on my word. Average opponent for my game will not fold any Ax, suited cards, J7o+, off-suit one-gappers, etc. for a standard raise preflop. Very few nits in my sandbox. CO has very wide betting range usually, especially OTF.
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    Sounds like my game they are calling any draw doesn't even have to be A or K. They are also calling and hoping to peel gut shots. Some 2pairs here but if that's the case it sucks to be me. I like the play. I have cbet problems so I would of just jammed probably
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭✭
    Preflop I prefer larger iso has 5x or 6x are standard opens. So 7x or 8x vs 1 limper.

    Flop spr is 4. Against multiway pot I prefer leading with 1 pair as my equity. You are probably slightly ahead of their equity but its really close. With that said maybe cbet something like 18bb and possible fold if someone raises. I don't think they will be raising AT here. If they only flat hopefully a 2 falls on the turn where I would be jamming.

    I played a hand with T9s on T 7 6 where it was 8 way pot and BB led out for $25 and got 3 callers..i know three callers never slow play sets or 2 pair here. So that left them with a lot of pair + draws in their rnage and Tx. I block 98. Knowing your opponents is key in my spot as I raised to $100 with $200 behind and everyone folded.

    So I'm not saying bet fold is best play. I just think bet call it off is villain dependent. I prefer check raise with 2 pair or better here or big draw yourself. If you include back door draws. A hand like 9c8c would be high variance but probably has just as much equity as JJ when you get called.

    Whether your cbetting or check raising i like both just prefer cbetting..as long as its not a check call down.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Austin wrote: »
    Preflop I prefer larger iso has 5x or 6x are standard opens. So 7x or 8x vs 1 limper.

    Flop spr is 4. Against multiway pot I prefer leading with 1 pair as my equity. You are probably slightly ahead of their equity but its really close. With that said maybe cbet something like 18bb and possible fold if someone raises. I don't think they will be raising AT here. If they only flat hopefully a 2 falls on the turn where I would be jamming.

    I played a hand with T9s on T 7 6 where it was 8 way pot and BB led out for $25 and got 3 callers..i know three callers never slow play sets or 2 pair here. So that left them with a lot of pair + draws in their rnage and Tx. I block 98. Knowing your opponents is key in my spot as I raised to $100 with $200 behind and everyone folded.

    So I'm not saying bet fold is best play. I just think bet call it off is villain dependent. I prefer check raise with 2 pair or better here or big draw yourself. If you include back door draws. A hand like 9c8c would be high variance but probably has just as much equity as JJ when you get called.

    Whether your cbetting or check raising i like both just prefer cbetting..as long as its not a check call down.

    Yeah the CB/call-vs-some-fold-vs-others is my standard play in this spot, especially MW, and w/ the SPR the way it is it would set up a PS shove OTT most of the time when we get flatted, but more than half the deck makes every play OTT (from shoving to check/folding to check/calling) "bad" (though shoving is probably best on alot of those blank overs and low spades in a loose game despite the shittiness of the situation). So there's definitely incentive to getting it AI OTF, and I think the pot dynamics here allow me to do so most times w/ a CR.

    Also my PF raise sizes still carry over from online, and especially tournament short-stack logic when straddle/short-stacks kick in. Probably earning me calls I don't necessarily want. My std w/ no limpers is 4x, but I should be experimenting more w/ 5x from EP-MP.

    Thanks for input.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    mbehr1983 wrote: »
    Sounds like my game they are calling any draw doesn't even have to be A or K. They are also calling and hoping to peel gut shots. Some 2pairs here but if that's the case it sucks to be me. I like the play. I have cbet problems so I would of just jammed probably

    Open jam the flop or go for bet-shove line OTF-OTT?
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    50 in pot u have you have 190 left SPR is small so I think a jam overbet could be a good play. This might also represent the straight. From your description you will get called by gut shots and flush draws this may maximize your FE. Lots of scary turn cards can come. I could also go with call and jam OTT. I like your C/R line as well. Are u jamiimng any scare card on the TUrn?
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
    Nice line. Perfect
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    mbehr1983 wrote: »
    50 in pot u have you have 190 left SPR is small so I think a jam overbet could be a good play. This might also represent the straight. From your description you will get called by gut shots and flush draws this may maximize your FE. Lots of scary turn cards can come. I could also go with call and jam OTT. I like your C/R line as well. Are u jamiimng any scare card on the TUrn?

    An overbet of this size is usually a bit absurd and will force some folds I don't want (though I understand your logic), but it does make the hand "easier". I think c/r >= b/c > b/f > shove > check fold or call.