3-Bet K9o OOP -- Postflop Plan?

MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
edited July 2016 in Live Poker Hands
Villain is probably running like 45/30 over a couple hours. He is not a maniac though so I thought I had insta-profit fold equity preflop along w/ my K-blocker, even though flatting my hand and playing the c/c game works too against his range. I had no real line on his post flop barreling tendencies, especially in a 3-bet pot for this particular sizing. What is your play here? Would you rather CB instead of checking? If we call (or CB), what is our plan OTT & OTR? We both have about 110BBe.

Hero: :Kh :9d

Villain (CO) raises 3BB, fold x2, Hero (BB) raises 11BB, Villain calls

Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

Hero checks, Villain bets 16BB, Hero ???

Turn ??? River ???

Comments

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    For results click here, but curious how others would approach this situation w/ marginal SDV OOP relatively readless postflop, but villain is on the somewhat-LAG spectrum:
    I really hated exposing myself to a 2-3 barrel I could not handle on a wet dynamic board in an awkward 5 SPR spot. Hero folded.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Seems like an odd hand to 3b defend with. I think I'd be dropping this and using something either better or worse, personally. I get the king blocks some combos, but what flop (besides K9x or better!) are you looking for? Any king you probably won't be able to actualize the equity being OOP and having no kicker , and are you going to be betting a pair of 9s?

    I don't think this board generally hits most 3b ranges from the BB, so would be hard to Cbet, but I might pull the trigger anyways. I err on the side of cbetting too frequently, because it seems in too many games I play, checks invite too many villains to bet IP. We see quandary that is brought up by checking when we have the betting lead we neglect to keep it.
    As played, Hero's fold on the flop is fine, IMO. The goal was to get villain to fold pre, and didn't work(still doesn't mean it wasn't a profitable move pre). Although we are ahead here at times, any line we take to continue in the hand isn't really going to make our hand easier to play or define the situation any better. Check raise would put half our stack in, and if we are called, villain can put tons of pressure on us with relatively small turn bets.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    Seems like an odd hand to 3b defend with. I think I'd be dropping this and using something either better or worse, personally. I get the king blocks some combos, but what flop (besides K9x or better!) are you looking for? Any king you probably won't be able to actualize the equity being OOP and having no kicker , and are you going to be betting a pair of 9s?

    I don't think this board generally hits most 3b ranges from the BB, so would be hard to Cbet, but I might pull the trigger anyways. I err on the side of cbetting too frequently, because it seems in too many games I play, checks invite too many villains to bet IP. We see quandary that is brought up by checking when we have the betting lead we neglect to keep it.
    As played, Hero's fold on the flop is fine, IMO. The goal was to get villain to fold pre, and didn't work(still doesn't mean it wasn't a profitable move pre). Although we are ahead here at times, any line we take to continue in the hand isn't really going to make our hand easier to play or define the situation any better. Check raise would put half our stack in, and if we are called, villain can put tons of pressure on us with relatively small turn bets.

    Yeah for me K9o is flexible enough to flat, fold, or occasionally 3bet pre (though something polarized & "junkier" to balance my premiums is standard). *shrug*

    Postflop I feel every line is a spew beside giving up. The only things villain folds on this board that's in his theoretical bet/call range pre is AK IMO (which were ahead of). So unless I'm willing to 2 barrel for stacks this is a bad spot to bet/give up (as you alluded to in your spoiler about a bloated pot OTT).

    Thanks for solid response.
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Yeah for me K9o is flexible enough to flat, fold, or occasionally 3bet pre (though something polarized & "junkier" to balance my premiums is standard). *shrug*

    Postflop I feel every line is a spew beside giving up. The only things villain folds on this board that's in his theoretical bet/call range pre is AK IMO (which were ahead of). So unless I'm willing to 2 barrel for stacks this is a bad spot to bet/give up (as you alluded to in your spoiler about a bloated pot OTT).

    Thanks for solid response.

    Maybe the reverse implied odds scare me more than they need to. To me, it's a hand that will be just good enough to milk us for a lot of money on a lot of flops when we 'hit'. Not to say I never play it, I can definitely find a reason to flat or 3b pre as well depending on villains. For me, if the villain sized it half pot, I think I'd feel obligated to float, or would at least be put in a spot of indifference, which isn't good for us.

    Yeah, not to say cbetting is optimal, but i'd have to consider it before check/give up. It could very well be spew though
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    @FilthyCasual I mean I'm getting away from a K or 9 vs heavy action most times, but I think I would definitely be more willing to venture a cc or bet/fold, etc. with any pair or air on a better board.
  • Joe MartinezJoe Martinez Red Chipper Posts: 5
    I don't mind getting out of line from time to time with a speculative hand. I'll usually do it in position though. Given the way you played this hand preflop, I think you have to C bet the flop. It's not a great flop for your 3 bet range but I'd still take at least one stab at it. If your opponent calls the flop then I'd probably shut it down and check fold.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    I don't mind getting out of line from time to time with a speculative hand. I'll usually do it in position though. Given the way you played this hand preflop, I think you have to C bet the flop. It's not a great flop for your 3 bet range but I'd still take at least one stab at it. If your opponent calls the flop then I'd probably shut it down and check fold.

    Why CB though? What worse hands call, what better folds? I think most of his range fits this flop, at least for 1-2 bets.
  • Joe MartinezJoe Martinez Red Chipper Posts: 5
    @Monad I'd C bet to maintain the lead in the hand and maintain aggression. While maybe half or more of his range hit this flop, what about the times he has a small pocket pair or 65s and folds to a C bet? In this case, I don't think it's about what worse hands call or what better fold, it's about not letting your opponent steal the pot from you when you check the flop.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    @Monad I'd C bet to maintain the lead in the hand and maintain aggression. While maybe half or more of his range hit this flop, what about the times he has a small pocket pair or 65s and folds to a C bet? In this case, I don't think it's about what worse hands call or what better fold, it's about not letting your opponent steal the pot from you when you check the flop.

    It's only beneficial if A) Those hands (sscs & spps) are in his range and B) He will bluff with them. I don't really include them and we don't know if he bluffs with them, and for how many streets, etc. so checking and keeping their range wide and weak can be good too depending.

    I don't completely disagree though, but just think our fold equity and sdv are too marginal on this board. Too easy to get outplayed on later streets too.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. If we imagine all the possible iterations of the scenario where you squeeze with Kx, there will be some flops you will win without a fight, some you will lose without a fight, and some you will win or lose after a fight. Where do you want second pair good kicker to fit into these scenarios?
    2. If you have a philosophy of fighting for three bet pots, you'll see that you want low Kxs, not Kxo, and K10o, not K8o, because you'll need backdoors. K9o is on the cusp. Since you don't have that fighting philosophy and value being wise, I can see why this hand happened and which category it went into for you, right or wrong.
    3. Joe M: Having the lead is a secondary consideration in making an effective cbet. Ask yourself: do I want the lead on flops my opponents like? Cbetting for the lead itself is cart before horse.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 619 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    1. If we imagine all the possible iterations of the scenario where you squeeze with Kx, there will be some flops you will win without a fight, some you will lose without a fight, and some you will win or lose after a fight. Where do you want second pair good kicker to fit into these scenarios?
    2. If you have a philosophy of fighting for three bet pots, you'll see that you want low Kxs, not Kxo, and K10o, not K8o, because you'll need backdoors. K9o is on the cusp. Since you don't have that fighting philosophy and value being wise, I can see why this hand happened and which category it went into for you, right or wrong.
    3. Joe M: Having the lead is a secondary consideration in making an effective cbet. Ask yourself: do I want the lead on flops my opponents like? Cbetting for the lead itself is cart before horse.

    These type of considerations have really helped me improve a very spewey few weeks where I guess I was watching too much TV poker and trying to get into a "let me out play this fucker" mentality and it ended up losing me about 300 bb's from getting into these scenarios. I think most LAGs be comfortable with this board as it just seems to have caught this board pretty often and will often be peeling or even check raising to see if your really ready to fight with marginal or speculative holdings.

    My friend eventually just gave me a reality check and told me "I don't think your comfortable enough firing barrels and confident enough in your hand reading skills to be playing this type of style." He was right, I would shut it down too early and often assume the worst if anyone called a c-bet or two. Not meant to be insulting just think it's time to put the ego on the shelf like I had to and consider what persuadeo said, what's your comfort level of fighting? For myself I wasn't ready to C-bet here with the intention of being ready to fire all 3 barrels depending on the turn and river, it's time to check fold. If your ready to rep the top end of your range and feel comfortable navigating turns and rivers, take what you think is the best line of either multiple barrels (which if the 2nd one gets called I'm like fuckkkkkkk which is why I'd just toss this hand, but a 2 barrel will get a lot of TP/MP + draws will generally fold) or run a c/r line. As played I like it, sometime's when I do something similar to this I feel as if I'm being too weak on the table but I think it's just a smart lay-down if your not comfortable.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭✭
    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Why is this not a good cbet board for our range? If your 3 betting K9, then you could also be 3 betting 77-AA, Suited broadways, AT, AJ, etc.

    I would cbet about 12-13bb if you are raised I would probably give up. If he flats you know he most likely has some type of draw and you can drop the hammer on some safe turn cards 2-5 for value. There are plenty of KJ, AJ, KQ, type hands villain will call the flop with. If he plays his draws aggressively than I do not mind a c/c line.

    As splitsuit said barrel your range not your whole cards.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    We both have about 110BBe.

    Hero: :Kh :9d

    Villain (CO) raises 3BB, fold x2, Hero (BB) raises 11BB, Villain calls

    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Hero checks, Villain bets 16BB, Hero ???

    Turn ??? River ???
    why all the secrecy on stakes?
    Makes a HUUUUUGE difference if this is 50¢/$1, $1/$2/, $2/$5, $5/$10 or 10/20.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Why is this not a good cbet board for our range?

    As splitsuit said barrel your range not your whole cards.

    It may be a good board for your range depending, but is that how it is perceived by the caller?

    Does splitsuit advise barrelling one's entire range into boards that perceivably hit the caller? How many shells does AK want to fire here?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    We both have about 110BBe.

    Hero: :Kh :9d

    Villain (CO) raises 3BB, fold x2, Hero (BB) raises 11BB, Villain calls

    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Hero checks, Villain bets 16BB, Hero ???

    Turn ??? River ???
    why all the secrecy on stakes?
    Makes a HUUUUUGE difference if this is 50¢/$1, $1/$2/, $2/$5, $5/$10 or 10/20.

    Stakes matter less knowing villains stats. Knowing the stakes vs unknowns more important.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 2,514 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Why is this not a good cbet board for our range?

    As splitsuit said barrel your range not your whole cards.

    It may be a good board for your range depending, but is that how it is perceived by the caller?

    Does splitsuit advise barrelling one's entire range into boards that perceivably hit the caller? How many shells does AK want to fire here?

    AK would probably turn into a triple barrel or 1 bullet. I know villains don't think about our range that much. I think K9 is a clear value hand for leading. Once he bets it really depends on past history. I would lean towards calling 2 bullets and depends if he fires 3 barrels with missed draws or not. Most players are not firing 3 barrels with air in a 3 bet pot, so I limit myself to calling 2 barrels.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a very spewy way forward, Austin. If K9 on this board is a "clear value hand," almost everything you have is a clear value hand or a bet. This betting range is weak and is going to get punished by floats and slowplays and raises.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Hey Folks, first post in long long time. I really am enjoying this thread and wanted to jump in.

    To the question of 3betting K9o, I would never consider it, then again I don't 3bet much from the bblind, since I feel so comfortable defending in a heads up pot, which could definitely be a leak. But if I am preparing to go to war in 3bet pots, I want to have hands that make either strong hands or strong draws. It makes these pots easier to play: TPTK and overpairs are usually clear value hands, while big draws are clear semibluffs (in the right circumstances of course). K9o almost never makes strong hands or strong draws, so I would rather have a suited hand and/or more connectedness at the very least in my 3bet bluffing range.

    Also I wanted to echo persuadeo's thoughts (a good default plan imo) to Austin regarding this board. Austin, you say that if we have K9o, then we have 77--AA and tons of other big card hands in our range. But I think there are two false assumptions in that: 1) that hero is 3betting all hands K9 or better, which seems false given hero's description, and 2) that villain will perceive all these hands in our range. This board is the absolute textbook example of a board that greatly favors the caller over the raiser. Sure, we have more AA-JJ than villain, but he should have more TT-88, QJ, T9, 98, perhaps 76s, and Axspades. This is the type of board we should strongly consider checking our entire range imo. Just think, if you have AA with no spade, are you excited about this flop? I am most definitely not, we can be put in so many horrible spots with this flop and SPR by good villains. So if we aren't even excited by AA, we certainly cannot be fistpump-value betting hands like 2nd pair or we are going to get absolutely owned by good players.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 975 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Monad wrote: »
    We both have about 110BBe.

    Hero: :Kh :9d

    Villain (CO) raises 3BB, fold x2, Hero (BB) raises 11BB, Villain calls

    Flop: :Ts :9s :8h (22BB)

    Hero checks, Villain bets 16BB, Hero ???

    Turn ??? River ???
    why all the secrecy on stakes?
    Makes a HUUUUUGE difference if this is 50¢/$1, $1/$2/, $2/$5, $5/$10 or 10/20.

    .25/.50/1. I've played 1/2 in my area -- it plays almost identical (loose & bad) w/ a similar player pool. If you must know.

    You should be able to properly analyze the hand with the details provided (player type/reads/frequencies, stack sizes, action, etc.).