Hand #3

GregGreg Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
:8s:8c:2C:
After hero bets 3/4 pot on flop ($20) into 2 players and BB calls.

:Ts
Turn- The BB (unknown) decides to donk lead into you for $40.
Hero goes all in for $200.

Are you going to
fold, call, or go all-in with:
Overpairs? just call
Flush Draws? all in
99? all in

This spot is really difficult for me because I don't ever go all in here which seems like a weakness of mine.

If I have strong value like a full house or better I bet small to set up stacks all in on river.
If I have trips or over pair I'm not sure what worse hands call my all in shove.

I guess If I am bluffing I can shove to get a worse hands to fold. That makes sense because villain's bet seems to be a blocking bet.

Verse an unknown player that makes this type of bet I usually won't bluff raise.
His $40 donk bet in a 1/2 game makes me think he is bad. I will usually not bluff a bad player unless I see they are the type that can fold a hand here.

I often see call flop then donk lead turn as strength in bad players (Vince from my home game) or as a ten or middle pair they won't fold to my bluff raise.

I am assuming if I have fold equity this is a +ev shove.

As played I ended up with-
#78 combos
42.9% previous range (club and spade flush draws and under pairs to the T)

This hand tortures me.

Comments

  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Best to discuss this hand use part one template or at least starting range number of combos
    And on each street the same with number of combos and % of previous range
  • GregGreg Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Pre:
    26.1%, 346 Combos
    Flop:
    66.8%, 193 Combos
    Turn:
    42.9%, 78 Combos
  • akashraakashra Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    Greg, you're shoving with 99 on river here with you're read?

    "I often see call flop then donk lead turn as strength in bad players (Vince from my home game) or as a ten or middle pair they won't fold to my bluff raise."

    Can't see 99 being a profitable shove in those regards?

    I'm kind of with you in part though because I don't see myself shoving a huge part of my range, but perhaps I could open that up a bit. I feel like I'm calling overpairs even though I'm giving space for some draws to get there I feel like them hitting the 10 hits their range more strongly when they donk-lead the turn...

    I feel like they fold enough when I shove, so I call giving them a chance to cbet again, or giving me initiative on the river to value bet when it comes safe. I don't know if I'm missing value or not for the times they do call with a ten here as opposed to the times I lose to an oddly played 8.

    I feel like I'm generally calling flush draws and such here also without doing the exact math... definitely with overs / but maybe this is wrong - I'm assuming we don't have much Fold Equity vs. unknowns with a bare 10 on the river when we shove, and if we did shove we still have equity plus a lot of fold equity if our read is that he has a lot of 10's here... hrmm.
  • GregGreg Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    "Greg, you're shoving with 99 on river here with you're read?"

    As the hero played hand he has no strong value in his shove based on how I play.
    So my read is hero's shove is very bluff heavy. Mostly flush draws or under pairs trying to get a T to fold.

    In a vacuum I usually think the smallish donk bet here is a player trying to see where he is at. That's why I am ok bluffing with all of my small pairs because I should be able to get his ten to fold. If he really liked his hand I would assume villain would check raise. I also think he would check raise if he had the flush draw.

    So basically I am guessing if this bad player has a fold button or not in my analysis.

    I like a small raise on turn with a value hand because there are alot of cards that can shut him down on the river. I also like the small size to try and keep his tens and under pairs in.

    Thanks for the response!
  • Briax24Briax24 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    Do you think Villain calls off with JT,QT,KT,AT cc, Does he call off with JJ/QQ sometimes?
  • GregGreg Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    After some live play in Reno and Vegas I have a new outlook on this hand.
    I think villain has a pair of T's or hit a back door flush draw. IMO villain isn't folding either of these hands to my shove often.

    I am no longer shoving 99.
    I am definitely shoving AT+ & JJ+ for value.
    I am calling with my flush draws.

    I am looking to get as much thin value as possible rather then get worse hands to fold.

    I am trying to pin down the worst hand I will shove for thin value.
    I think if I shove AT he can call with AT, KT, QT, JT & back door flush draws.

    My best ques, without any reads is I shove KT+.

    What do you think?

  • gwjones00gwjones00 Red Chipper Posts: 27
    edited September 2016
    Just getting started here. My play on hand 3:

    We are MP1 and open to $10.
    Weakest Broadway hand: JTo
    Pocket pairs: 66+
    Do I raise hands outside of that range: In a game like this, I’m more likely to limp SCs 65+ and small pocket pairs (22-55). The fact that a lot of big pots are being won by non nut hands allows me to play some more speculative hands. Assumption is also that this is a stationy game and people aren’t folding.

    YOUR PREFLOP RANGE
    66+, AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, AJo, AJs, ATs, ATo KQo, KQs, KJs, KJo, KTs, KTo QJo, QJs, QTs, QTo, JTs, JTo, J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A5s, A4s, A3s, A2s
    %-FORM 18.9 %
    COMBOS # 292

    Flop: 8s8c2c. BB checks. Solid player in position. Would I bet:
    Overpairs: Yes
    Flush draws: Some
    AK: Yes

    This is a pretty good board to fire a c-bet. Solid player will be folding a lot as this flop misses most of his preflop calling range.

    YOUR FLOP RANGE
    66+, AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, AJo, AJs, ATs, ATo KQo, KQs, KJs, KJo, KTs, KTo QJo, QJs, QTs, QTo, JTs, JTo, J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, A5s, A4s, A3s, A2s
    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 100%
    COMBOS # 292

    Turn Ts. Villain now leads for $40. We respond by shoving….

    Are we going to fold, call or go all-in with:

    Overpairs: Call
    Flush draws: Fold - it’s $40 to win $110, or 2.7ish to 1. We need 4 to 1 for a profitable call. If I shove, 8’s aren’t folding (25 combos if he calls 86+), top pair isn’t folding (30 more combos), 22 (3 combos) - so a total of 60 combos he’s calling with here. Really depends on how tight he is. If we follow the course, I would fold my FDs.
    99: Fold

    So, my shoving range would be incredibly tight here - TT, 88, 22, T8 - and would contain no bluffs.

    Comments appreciated.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    Hi everybody

    Here would be my ranges:
    Pre:
    12%, 156 Combos (worst pair: 77; worst broadway: QJo/KTs; SC: 87s+; no AX)
    Flop:
    38.8%, 57 Combos
    Turn:
    66.7%, 36 Combos

    Opinions and questions:
    Pre
    There are 2 players which strongly could call/raise behind us. As the dynamic is very active until SD and with 2nd best (=the call until SD), I would rather tighten up to avoid being OOP with a rather bad hand / with too few equity. Plus a 3bet from a good TAG or a LAG in position is totally possible; we shall be ready for it.

    -> is it too nity??

    Turn
    I don't see :TS: on :8S::8C::2C: as a scary card. Would really such donk bet be for bluff? I see it mostly as someone happy with a T (from AT to T9s) and ready to call. Plus a min raise or call wouldn't be relevant because of too low SPR on river.

    Hence I support Greg: shoving for value/thin value and rather fold 99. Flushdraw: I might shove with JcTc and Tc9c as I've a pair with the draw.
  • nathanwallace90nathanwallace90 Red Chipper Posts: 4
    Pre O range 55+, 87s+, A2-A5s, ATo, All other broadways. Keeping a strong range with some unknowns, good and bad players behind with bigger stacks. 17%

    Flop comes and checks to me as Pre-flop aggressor so i am continuing often anyway but checking a little more as there are 2 others instead of head ups. Betting all my pairs , All club & Spade broadways as either value or back door semi-bluff/ blocker overboard type hands. 50% of previous range bets. 105 combos

    When the Turn comes and BB bets, the 10 either helped him by giving him top pair, Straight draws with J9 and 97 (probably only clubs) or Flush draw. Shoving all Nut FDs and top pair & FDs. Checking all over pairs, sets and quads so that i can still get away if they complete but can still get value if they don't and he bluffs at them. 10% previous range, 13 combos. most of my range is happy to see the river.
  • avidlearner888avidlearner888 Red Chipper Posts: 6
    What is the weakest Broadway hand you would open-raise
    here? AJo

    What about pocket pairs? 66

    Do you raise any hands out side of that range - like suited connectors or A5s? No

    PREFLOP: 66+, AJs+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, AJo+, Kqo (11%-form)(138combos)

    :8S::8C::2C:

    There is still a solid player who has position on you. Are you going to bet or check this flop with:
    Overpairs? Bet
    Flush Draws? Bet
    Ace King - bet


    FLOP: AA-88,AKo-AJo,AKs-AJs,98s,87s,KcQc,QcJc,JcTc,Tc9c (72%-of previous range)(93 combos)

    :TS:

    The BB decides to lead into you on the turn. Are you going to fold, call, or go all-in with:
    Overpairs? No, just call and fold to another big bet on river
    Flush Draws? No, fold to aggression. If pot odds were higher I might call but I still can't call an all-in on the river as the flush ain't the nuts here unless unknown was changed to a super aggro.
    99? No, fold to aggression

    TURN: TT,88,98s,87s(9%-of previous range)(8 combos)

    As played, I will only go all in with made hands. Based on what I've seen so far, most people will bet here with an 8x, T w/ club FD, or a spade/club FD that folds to an all-in
  • NuttedNutterNuttedNutter Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    HAND #3

    So with that piece of info, the player types and stack sizes I'd open:

    Weakest Broadway hand? ATo
    PP's? Yes. 22-AA
    Hands outside that range? Yes. Both.

    Range: AA-22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo,AKs-A2s,KQs-K8s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,65s,54s

    %FORM: 21.3%
    COMBOS#: 282

    :8s:8c:2c

    Solid CO TAG w/ position on us..
    Overpairs? Bet. Not worried about JJ-AA as those are likely 3bet pf by this player.

    Flush Draws? Check. W/ Solid CO TAG still left to act and the BB who could've either checked a weak 8 and plans to ch/call or ch/raise it or could still continue along w/ flushdraws, 77-22, overs possibly. Solid CO TAG has some good 8's, fd's+overcards, 77-22 and possibly 99-JJ as well which are all continuing so I don't see too much value in betting since there's not a lot of fold equity to be had in this spot.

    AK? Check. For the same reasons I'd check the FD's I'd check AK high plus we also have some SD value.

    RANGE: AA-22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo,AKs-A2s,KQs-K8s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,65s,54s
    %OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 40.1%
    COMBOS #: 101

    HU vs BB to turn: :Ts
    GO ai with..

    Overpairs? Actually not sure and am looking for answers after I post.. an argument for jamming overpairs is there are a few combo draws that he could be leading turn with here: 7c6c, 9c7c, Jc9c, Qc9c.

    Could also be leading with a T like T7s-T9s, JTs-ATs w/ JJ+ we have 83.6% equity against this range... the other argument for calling is well I think since we are ip vs him even though by calling we don't protect our equity and allow vill to realize his equity well he doesn't get there on the river very often only having 16.4% equity with that part of range.

    All other T's will likely continue betting a lot of safe rivers or we can check and bet for value at that point against T's. Another argument for calling ip is that if villain does happen to have an 8 or ch/called flop w/ TT then we only get better to call and crush us.

    Flushdraws? Call. We have position and for the same reasons as the arguments for calling with overpairs. If we go all in it doesn't look like we have a lot of fold equity and are essentially just drawing to hit on riv.

    99? Fold. We aren't beating much except 77-33, fd's and a few combo draws but I don't think BB leads turn with anything less than an 8 or T.

    RANGE: AA-TT,88,22,A8s,K8s,T8s,98s,87s,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,Kc9c,QcJc,QcTc,Qc9c,JcTc,Jc9c,Tc9c,9c7c,7c6c,6c5c,5c4c

    % OF PREVIOUS RANGE: 64.4%
    COMBOS#: 65








  • ZachAndTiredZachAndTired Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    What is the weakest Broadway hand you would open-raise
    here? KQo

    What about pocket pairs? 22 (likely to get paid off if we flop a set on an action table like this)

    Do you raise any hands out side of that range - like suited connectors or A5s? No, keeping my range fairly premium in early position with aggressive players behind me.

    PREFLOP: 22+, AJ+, KQ (10.7%-form)(142combos)

    :8S::8C::2C:

    There is still a solid player who has position on you. Are you going to bet or check this flop with:
    Overpairs? Bet
    Flush Draws? Bet
    Ace King? Check with the intention of calling a bet from the villain behind me


    FLOP: 22+, AJc+, KQc (55.2%-of previous range)(74 combos)

    :TS:

    The BB decides to lead into you on the turn. Are you going to fold, call, or go all-in with:
    Overpairs? I'm shoving for value and protection here. It's very unlikely villain has an 8 and is probably leading with a 10 or some sort of draw. We also might get a call from these hands or weaker overpairs given the way the table has been playing.
    Flush Draws? Fold. Even if we could gaurantee that we get paid off on the river, a call would still only be break-even. Add into the equation that it's possible (though unlikely) that we are drawing dead and it's a clear fold.
    99? Call. Villain could be leading with a draw here.

    TURN: 22, 88, TT+ (43.7%-of previous range)(31 combos)
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    PREFLOP: (14.3%-form)(190combos)
    AA-22,AKo-AQo,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s
    Look at the players behind you and then construct your range. What is the weakest Broadway hand you would open-raise here? What about pocket pairs? Do you raise any hands outside of that range - like suited connectors or A5s?
    Worst Broadway hand JTs
    worst pocket pair 22
    Other Hands 65s+,AXs
    Flop:
    :8S::8C::2S:

    (55.2%-of previous range)(74 combos)
    There is still a solid player who has position on you. Are you going to bet or check this flop with:
    Over Pairs? Bet for Value
    Flush Draws? Bet as a semibluff
    AK? Bet as a bluff

    (97.7%-of previous range)(171 combos)
    AA-99,77-33,AKo-AQo,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s
    With this board and a TAG and an unknown I am betting almost everything to try value for my strong hands and take it down now with my weak hands. The only thing I am checking is quads or a full house because I want to let them catch up.
    Turn:
    :TS:

    The BB decides to lead into you on the turn. Are you going to fold, call, or go all-in with:
    OverPairs? Call
    Flush Draws? All in as a semi-bluff
    99? Fold

    (25.2%-of previous range)(41 combos)
    TT,A8s,98s,87s,AcKc,AsKs,AcQc,AsQs,AcJc,AsJs,AcTc,Ac9c,As9s,Ac7c,As7s,Ac6c,As6s,Ac5c,As5s,Ac4c,As4s,Ac3c,As3s,As2s,KcQc,KsQs,KcJc,KsJs,KcTc,QcJc,QsJs,QcTc,JcTc,Tc9c,7c6c,7s6s

    Going All in with my strong hands and with flush draws that have fold equity.


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