Missed Value/Playing Your Opponent

Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 667 ✭✭✭
edited July 2014 in Live Poker Hands
This hand falls into a combo of missed value and playing a player out to get you. Quick setup:

I had been at this table for a few hours. Over the last hour or so I had been raising the button, cut-off and hijack pretty regularly. When people started to call I increased my raise size. When they started calling those I c-bet. During the period I went from around $150 to around $500. I'm sure I hit a couple hands, but mostly I was stealing because people were letting me. Then this hand happened: I raise from late position (in seat 1) and was called by a pretty bad player who limped UTG (seat 5). He check calls a c-bet. He check raises a turn bet. I fold. When this happens, I notice seat 8, who is not even in the hand, give a fist shake. I did not know he had such feelings for me. Also, I should add that I didn't think much of Mr. Fist Shake. He played a ton of hands and perhaps more telling, when he first sat down and the dealer asked for his players card his reply was "What's a players card?" I'm sure he wins a lot in his $10 home game with his buddies.

THE ACTION: (please note I did not recall suits when I recorded the hand but they were not a factor in this hand)

EP3: Call
Hijack: Call
Button: Call - Villain $200
SB: Call
BB: Check - Hero AJo $450

FLOP: J 4 5 pot $10

SB: Check/Fold
Hero: $10
EP3: Fold
Hijack: Fold
Villain: Call

Turn: Ace pot $30 J-4-5, A

Hero: $25/Call
Villain: $55

A check raise on the turn? My first thought was he had to have hit a set. But I had top two and I knew he wanted a pot from me. I opted to call and see what he'd do on the river.

RIVER: King pot $140 J-4-5, A, K

Hero: Check/Call
Villain: $65

I realize $65 into a $140 pot isn't that big but I think it seemed big to this guy. In the back of my mind I was still thinking set, but I also couldn't forget the fist shake.

Did his line suggest a set?
How much, if any, of my focus should have been on this guy not liking me?
Should I have shoved the Turn? Shoved the River?

IN THE END:

Villian had K4o. Rivered 2 pair. Hero wins $138 pot. Villain picks up his remaining stack and leaves.

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    Skors3 wrote:
    I notice seat 8, who is not even in the hand, give a fist shake. I did not know he had such feelings for me.

    This is enough for me. I am aggressive as fuck at the table. I get cross glances, speeches, empty threats and warnings all the time. If I do not get threatened at the table at least once a month, I know I am not check-raising enough.

    Do not fear the boisterous man who shouts out his impotent rage, he is no threat. Be wary of the quiet man who will silently slit your throat in the middle of the night and walk away.

    The people that start calling me "Sir Raise-a-lot" or mention how often I raise are speaking because that is their only defense. Same with Mr. Fist Pump. The guy that quietly gets a seat change to my left then starts three-betting and four-betting me is the real threat, and he won't say a thing.
    Skors3 wrote:
    THE ACTION: (please note I did not recall suits when I recorded the hand but they were not a factor in this hand)

    EP3: Call
    Hijack: Call
    Button: Call - Villain $200
    SB: Call
    BB: Check - Hero AJo $450

    Check is great. Totally on board with this so far.

    Skors3 wrote:
    FLOP: J 4 5 pot $10

    SB: Check/Fold
    Hero: $10
    EP3: Fold
    Hijack: Fold
    Villain: Call

    I am such a nit up front. I actually check this one. I am out of position in a limped pot to three players. You can either play this one fast or play it slow.

    I seriously consider slow. I am not sure I feel comfortable getting three-streets of value in here, if I am ahead I am likely fading six outs (since my opponent would need the Queen or King). I think out of position, there is a case to be made for checking and seeing if someone else will risk the money to clear the field. You might induce some worse hands to take stabs or go to town with underpairs. I show up a lot OOP with underrepped top pair hands.

    Playing this one fast is also an option, and I could do that too. I don't argue with any conviction against betting out. I am trying to protect my stack not my hand. Leading out and going for three streets is good too. It can leave you lost when the board runs out bad.
    Skors3 wrote:
    Turn: Ace pot $30 J-4-5, A

    Hero: $25/Call
    Villain: $55

    A check raise on the turn? My first thought was he had to have hit a set. But I had top two and I knew he wanted a pot from me. I opted to call and see what he'd do on the river.

    Get it in there. What beats you?
    23
    AA
    JJ
    55
    44


    Which of these are at all realistic?
    JJ
    55
    44

    If you smell a set behind every tree, you are not going to get value from your hands. I made a resolution a long time ago to not feel bad about stacking off to a set <100BB deep. Who knows what this bozo has. He has got a hand, but I am guessing yours is better. He ain't going to let go of this pot. Take him down now, or let him show you a set and smile then reload.

    Skors3 wrote:
    RIVER: King pot $140 J-4-5, A, K

    Hero: Check/Call
    Villain: $65

    I realize $65 into a $140 pot isn't that big but I think it seemed big to this guy. In the back of my mind I was still thinking set, but I also couldn't forget the fist shake.

    Ugh, AK just got there. I would have been all-in on the turn. I think as played I would have shipped in the remaining $140ish.
    Skors3 wrote:
    Did his line suggest a set?

    It suggests he likes his hand. Two Pair plus. on the turn.
    Skors3 wrote:
    How much, if any, of my focus should have been on this guy not liking me?

    It makes the victory sweeter. :) I think it tends to make him more aggressive, but it is the cards that give him courage. He has a hand, but not necessarily one that beats you.
    Skors3 wrote:
    Should I have shoved the Turn? Shoved the River?

    Yes to both.
    Skors3 wrote:
    IN THE END:

    Villian had K4o. Rivered 2 pair. Hero wins $138 pot. Villain picks up his remaining stack and leaves.

    So he was randomly spazzing out on the turn. You would have gotten him to fold most likely. The flat call made you money by chance.

    You missed value on the river, he walked away with your chips. Call security! :)

    -Doug
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Flop- I like your flop bet. They are plenty of hands they can and will continue with that you gain value from, and you have one the best hands you will show up there with.

    Turn- I can be for or against 3betting turn. It really depends on how likely he is to think you are full of ish and how likely he will call you with worse. Given the history you expressed I would be more likely to 3bet turn. But your call is OK given that the board is unlikely to change by the river.

    River- Finally, most of the time when your opponent has set or big hand on the river, his bet size will be much bigger than the size he chose. (BigBet/BigHand SmallBet/SmallHand)

    Given all that information I would have liked to see a raise on the river as played.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @doughull Why do you like a preflop check with AJ here?

    @skors Don't play people out to get you slow; they always think you are bluffing and you should go for max value on the turn or river here. His sizing does not suggest a set, and it is unlikely he has AK for several reasons.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    persuadeo wrote:
    @doughull Why do you like a preflop check with AJ here?

    We have three opponents behind us and one ahead of us. While we probably have the best hand, being out of position to so many people and with an SPR of 45 to 20 depending on the Villain I am not looking to play a huge pot.

    Exactly how big of a pot am I going to be comfortable making under these conditions?

    Depending on my level of disrespect for their play, I might take a bet bet bet line looking for someone to pay me off. However, checking top pair hands on the flop then leading and leading if the flop checks through makes people behind amazingly comfortable calling two streets because "No one checks top pair"
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    Doug you gave me something to think about. I would c-bet here 100%. I can see your line making sense, but so many worse hands can call this flop that I feel we're missing too much value. You're taking about fading outs, but if we check flop and turn is a T, Q, K or 8, we're kind of stuck in a worse spot.
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    persuadeo wrote:
    @doughull Why do you like a preflop check with AJ here?

    Doug the question is about pre and I was wondering the same thing. I would always raise.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    Big Owl wrote:
    persuadeo wrote:
    @doughull Why do you like a preflop check with AJ here?

    Doug the question is about pre and I was wondering the same thing. I would always raise.


    d'Oh! One demerit to Gryffindor for reading comprehension...

    So for much the same reason I check. I hate being out of position. There are four Villains to get through. Chances of this getting taken down pre-flop for my standard bet here of $20 is "Possible but not likely." When I raise, I will likely be playing a $50 - $110 pot with $430-$150 effective stacks. Anything can happen and not much of it is good OOP with unsuited unpaired cards that are sometimes dominated.

    I would be making this raise as a bluff not for value. I don't like any outcome other than taking it down. AJo is in my lite raising range, but the large amount of limpers makes it a more marginal move, especially when I can see a flop by tapping the felt.

    I check.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    Big Owl wrote:
    Doug you gave me something to think about. I would c-bet here 100%. I can see your line making sense, but so many worse hands can call this flop that I feel we're missing too much value. You're taking about fading outs, but if we check flop and turn is a T, Q, K or 8, we're kind of stuck in a worse spot.

    I can see Q and K being unfortunate turns on a board of J 4 5. The 8 brings in an open-ender but the Ten? Thinking two pair also played slow on the flop?

    I am pretty comfortable check calling the turn on those as bluff catchers. I am trying to protect my stack, not my hand.

    Against sufficiently clueless Villains I donk, donk, donk here.

    This TPTK is likely to be a bluff catcher by the end of the hand. What do we do with bluff catchers? We catch bluffs.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with checking Pre-flop against all those opponents OOP. But I disagree with checking flop. I believe leading flop is the best line. And I am likely trip this out on a lot of run outs. Even if we do not get called by worse a high percentage of the time by river (& they fold out), we protect ourselves for future bluffs on similar spots.
  • Big OwlBig Owl Red Chipper Posts: 170
    Maybe I'm being too stubborn but I feel AJs is too strong to limp behind. Also if villain is button he can't check raise turn.

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