$1/$2 Turned straight facing a check raise

LivepokerLivepoker Red Chipper Posts: 5
edited July 2014 in Live Poker Hands
Heros image: very active light 3 betting.
V image: loose, loves to see flops. Has donk bet small in limped pots with 2nd pair.

£1-£2
Eff stacks £500

3 people limp
Hero otb 4 :club 7 :club limps sb completes

Flop £10 3 :diamond 5 :diamond 7 :spade
V in bb donks £5 v2 calls hero raises to £15 bb calls.

Turn 6 :heart v cks hero bets £55 v raises to £125 hero calls.

River k :heart v bets £125 hero calls.

I called here as a bluff catcher or for a split pot. Is it ever correct to fold as his turn check raise just looks super strong.

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,032 -
    (I modified your post to add the stake in the title and graphical suits in the hand history)

    1. What range are you putting him on when he check/raises the turn?
  • LivepokerLivepoker Red Chipper Posts: 5
    In that situation he could have any 4, a flush draw, 89,
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,032 -
    Any 98 or just 9 :diamond 8 :diamond ?
  • LivepokerLivepoker Red Chipper Posts: 5
    Well his in the bb and no raise pre so could be any 89?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    Livepoker wrote:
    Heros image: very active light 3 betting.
    V image: loose, loves to see flops. Has donk bet small in limped pots with 2nd pair.

    £1-£2
    Eff stacks £500

    3 people limp
    Hero otb 4 :club 7 :club limps sb completes

    Flop £10 3 :diamond 5 :diamond 7 :spade
    V in bb donks £5 v2 calls hero raises to £15 bb calls.

    What does this raise accomplish? We bet or raise for one reason: Get the opponent to make a mistake. The first of these two are getting £35 if they call £10. The second is getting £45.

    A random two overcards are a 4:1 dog to your hand. The first is getting 3.5:1, the second is getting 4.5:1 The first made a tiny mistake with direct odds, the second did not.

    They are drawing against a pair of Sevens, no kicker and a one card gutterball.

    It is hard for the Villains to make a mistake here. This raise only make the pot bigger when you have little to no edge and has no fold equity. If you are going to raise here, make it something like £30 to £40. Now you have some fold equity, now they have a decision where they can make a mistake.
    Livepoker wrote:
    Turn 6 :heart v cks hero bets £55 v raises to £125 hero calls.

    Do you fear 48, 89? What you should really fear is 4 :diamond x :diamond It is far more common that you are getting freerolled than you are dominated here.
    Livepoker wrote:
    River k :heart v bets £125 hero calls.

    This is Villain dependent. Is this Villain ever calling you with anything other than a straight? Would he call with two pair, or a set? You play goofy hands on the button like 4 :club 7 :club for deception value. Now you have the third nut hand, losing exactly to 48 and 89. This is why you played this hand, is there a reason not to ship it in?

    There might be.

    If Villain is only calling you for the chop and with better hands, just call the river.

    If Villain is calling you with lots of two pair, top pair hands because 89, 48 and 4x seem unbelievable to him then ship it in. Oddly enough, people call bets more often on wet boards because they believe you "either got it (89) or you dont (air)" so they figure their top pair is either good or not. They don't know you are willing to ship it in with the third nut straight here.

    Depends on the Villain. I am likely shipping it in and chopping it back up. Sometimes I get the whole thing vs two pair, and every now and then I curse when he has 89. Villain dependent, but consider the ship.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • LivepokerLivepoker Red Chipper Posts: 5
    Looking back I was raising to get them to fold and to end the hand and I realised my sizing was way to small after the hand.

    I really can't see this villain calling a shove with worse
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,032 -
    Livepoker wrote:
    Well his in the bb and no raise pre so could be any 89?

    Right, but does he call the flop raise with any 98 or only the diamond variant? Given your size, I suppose any 98. Had you chosen a better raise size, I quickly deduce a lot (most/all) of the 98o combos
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You said you are active and light 3betting, but then you start this hand with one of the most passive, weak plays available in poker: limping on the button with trash. All your draws are dominated. I suggest that you either fold or raise so that your hand does not look like what it is.

    Small raise on the flop builds the pot, which is not what you want. Either check or pot it. We're early in the hand in a small pot so the money is nothing to your opponents.

    As played on the turn, I don't know what's right, but I would suspect I am beat while unhappily calling it off. More importantly, I have learned a crucial lesson and pass it on to you: once I have made a mistake early in a hand and am faced with the consequences of my actions, I can always "abort mission." My blueprint is faulty, I am not building this structure. Evidence is this hand: I am now forced to call it off to chop, win sometimes, but mostly lose.
  • JohnnyChilesJohnnyChiles Red Chipper Posts: 4
    Yea, I was going to comment on this thread before I fell asleep last night, but, well, I passed out hah. My comment was going to be in line with persuadeo. Why did you elect to limp preflop? This is a spot that all three options are certainly viable depending upon game conditions. I will comment on the flop, turn and river after I hear your thought process.
  • JohnnyChilesJohnnyChiles Red Chipper Posts: 4
    What you should really fear is 4 :diamond x :diamond It is far more common that you are getting freerolled than you are dominated here.

    Not to nitpick here, it's just not a daily occurrence that I get to nitpick someone who has written a work that I respect :oops: lol. There are 26 combos of 4 :diamond x :diamond and 89, 14 of which are 89. Of all the 4x's I think we can certainly discount the T4, 94, 84, and probably J4 and Q4 to a lesser extent. Yes, we can also limit some of the 89os, but I would still estimate that given the action you are looking at least at a 50/50 split of 89/4x if not closer to 60/40. In either case, the big mistakes made in the hand were likely preflop and the flop raise sizing.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,781 -
    What you should really fear is 4 :diamond x :diamond It is far more common that you are getting freerolled than you are dominated here.

    Not to nitpick here, it's just not a daily occurrence that I get to nitpick someone who has written a work that I respect :oops: lol.

    Thank you for the kind words.
    There are 26 combos of 4 :diamond x :diamond and 89, 14 of which are 89. Of all the 4x's I think we can certainly discount the T4, 94, 84, and probably J4 and Q4 to a lesser extent. Yes, we can also limit some of the 89os, but I would still estimate that given the action you are looking at least at a 50/50 split of 89/4x if not closer to 60/40. In either case, the big mistakes made in the hand were likely preflop and the flop raise sizing.

    So we have
    10 Suited 4 :diamond
    vs
    16 89 combos

    So combinatorically there are more 89's without a doubt. But let's look at the action. Villain is in the Big blind without a raise called or made. 100% of these hands are in his range.

    The flop he leads out. With the
    89 he has two overs and a gutterball with one combo being a flush draw.

    While with the
    4 :diamond x :diamond he has a gutterball and a flush draw.

    So if we give him credit for betting the 89, we must give him at least the same credit for betting 4 :diamond x :diamond . I would argue (and am doing so now). That the combo draw gets bet more often than the overcards and gutterball. We gotta reduce the 16 combos of 89 by some amount on the flop.

    On the turn after a call and a silly raise the ranges do not alter much. I doubt either is going to jam.

    On the turn, Villain check min raises
    89 has nut straight. Seems total consistent. A lead out would be too.
    4 :diamond x :diamond has a decent straight and flush redraw. Seems totally consistent. A lead out would be too.

    So this does not change anything really. Neither does the River.

    OK, getting freerolled is not "far more common" but is about as likely as the domination. I think when I wrote that I thought 89 was a gutterball. :)
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks

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