K8 on the River

Renato_LRenato_L Red Chipper Posts: 190
Final table. 4 players left.
UTG - 50BB - chip leader
Button (hero) - 20BB
SB - 20BB
BB - not relevant for this hand.

Preflop
UTG min raises to 2 BB
Button with K 8 diamonds calls
SB calls
Bb folds
pot 8 Bb

Flop
6 7 10 rainbow
UTG checks
with a gutshot, and perceiving weakness with that check , ibet about half pot.
SB folds.
UTG calls.
pot 16Bb

Turn
What are good continuation bluff cards?
6 of spades bringing 2 spades on board.
UTG checks again.
Hero?
I check.

River
Qof clubs
UTG checks again.
Does his line greenlight us to bet with our entire range?
How much do we bet?



Comments

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    Can you provide some Intel on villains? What is BB stack?
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Generally speaking flatting K8s preflop @ 20BB is a major leak, even short handed w position. I much prefer shoving if I choose to play hand at all.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Generally speaking flatting K8s preflop @ 20BB is a major leak, even short handed w position. I much prefer shoving if I choose to play hand at all.

    I was thinking this as well. I don't mind the call being short handed, ip, and facing a min raise. Overall though i usually just fold here preflop.

    On the flop vs two opponents i am likely to take a free card. Maybe if there was 1 diamond on the board you can take a small stab at it, even a little smaller than half pot is fine.

    On the river the Q seems like a good bluff card but how does that help your range that you bet the flop with? Thinking of perceived ranges Q only helps QT really.

    I can't think of any good bluff cards really. Villain check calling on 67T just hard to justify a good bluff card. We dont know if he has 87s, 88, 99, A8, A9, etc..i guess Q or J are your best bluff cards but against a thinking villain maybe only Jx.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Generally speaking flatting K8s preflop @ 20BB is a major leak, even short handed w position. I much prefer shoving if I choose to play hand at all.

    I definitely don't think you can be shoving here given ICM and stack sizes. And ICM really makes calling worse as well, it feels nitty but I think its an easy fold pre.

  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Generally speaking flatting K8s preflop @ 20BB is a major leak, even short handed w position. I much prefer shoving if I choose to play hand at all.

    I definitely don't think you can be shoving here given ICM and stack sizes. And ICM really makes calling worse as well, it feels nitty but I think its an easy fold pre.

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Generally speaking flatting K8s preflop @ 20BB is a major leak, even short handed w position. I much prefer shoving if I choose to play hand at all.

    I definitely don't think you can be shoving here given ICM and stack sizes. And ICM really makes calling worse as well, it feels nitty but I think its an easy fold pre.

    We don't even know what the BB's stack size is, nor do we know the CL/opener's tendencies yet, so both of our suggestions for how to play the situation are premature. No, a shove is not necessarily the best play, but its definitely better than taking a marginal hand with an unplayable post-flop stack w/ two potential squeezers behind us. I think folding is best here given our poor squeezing position, bad flatting stack, & the general information vacuum, not because of ICM.

    TBH I've never given much consideration to ICM until A) I make the top-3 (I used to grind a lot of 4/180s & SSMTT's, and this philosophy served me just fine), or B) I make a final table with a huge amount of chips and there is a comparable stack that can wipe out all my $$$ equity in a single hand while everyone else is short/medium-stacked.

    I've long thought of ICM as a sit-and-go concept that has received far too much emphasis in MTT's (barring unusual circumstances of course, where there's obvious value in just moving up incremental pay-scales, like if you're on the money bubble of the 10K main event and got in through a $100 dollar satellite, etc.). Just my opinion.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    Difficult to comment on the relevance of ICM to this situation without knowing the pay-out structure and all stack sizes. Assuming there are antes, UTG is reasonably active, and the pay-out structure is non-pathological, I think shove > fold > call.
    Moderation In Moderation

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