$1-$3 stack me

CoolHandLukeCoolHandLuke Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
Recent hand I played from live $1-$3 NLHE. Table has a couple LAGS, Nits & loose passive fish also.
Hero UTG :6s:6d raise $12
Get 4 callers. I'm the effective stack of $450.
Main villain is in hijack seat, is LAG, plays a ton of hands + has taken down a lot of pots with big c-bets mostly against the fish who aren't defending. He's squeezed a couple times and shown rags. Also shown down some strong value hands.
Pot $61
Flop :4h:6c:Ah
Hero check (with initial plan to check raise depending on action).
Hijack c-bet big $65 as expected. I called, everyone else folded.
I would usually check raise this flop but as the villain c-bet big as expected I decide to just call and check shove any turn if he c-bets big again.
I think his range is mostly Ax, random garbage, any two hearts, 8-8 or lower plus any pair with flush draw.
Turn :Qh
Hero check.
Villain bet $135
Hero raise All-in.
Villain calls, shows :8h:5h for flush.
River :9s
What is a turn shove achieving? Well I didn't want to shove flop and end the action if he had nothing that would call. I'm thinking he calls a turn shove with Ax or pair with flush draw and of course 4-4. If he has a flush I still have outs to boat up, if he folds I pick up a decent pot.
After the hand the opponent said he would've called a flop shove so I was always going broke with this hand. Although I got stacked I'm happy with the info gained from this player for future reference.
Any thoughts, tips, alternate strategies then fire away.
Cheers.



Comments

  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    With this being a multi way pot, you should be taking the betting lead.

    As played, you should be check raising this flop.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Pre is a good open. Flop I definitely CBet 60-80% pot for value, but your check makes sense with aggro fish in there. Check call good move vs this guy. Let him barrel. I prefer a check call vs a check raise ott, and probably check calling or shoving with what little I have left on river on most. Unless he's a payoff monkey he won't be bet calling much when 3rd heart hits, that's problem w turn cr.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    450 starting stack
    438 going to the flop
    373 left on the turn

    As played I dont see the need to shove 124bb on the turn. Do you really think he is stacking off with a hand like Ax10h on the turn when you are repping a flush yourself?

    Preflop love the open and feel too many players limp ep with small pairs and end up playing face up, so great job preflop.

    Flop. A64 ($61)
    Ax is a heavy portion of peoples calling range as discussed on the thread of how to play made hands. If you pot it here do you think they are folding FD or AT+? They may think your betting a fd and trying to force them out and become sticky themselves. I prefer a cbet on this flop near pot or even an overbet as you said its a mix of fish and lag.

    If you bet 60 the lag might even raise your cbet. 85s is basically a flip vs your hand. I wouldn't listen to villains comfort and say you would of gone broke anyways. It's true with his particular hand, but what if he had 64 or a4 here. What does a check raise tell him on the flop (your intial plan)?

    The best way to play your hand is by betting your hand. Especially at low stakes when people take so many free cards. You wanna plan the hand in order to get stacks in.

    Flop A64hh ($61)
    Hero (438) bets 60
    1 caller covers

    Turn a649 (181)
    Hero ($378) 120
    V calls

    River ($421) Q
    Hero ($258) all in

    Do you think villain folds A4, 64, 44, A9, AQ with this line? Check raise can push people off two pair while just betting your hand 100% pot \ 66% pot \, 66% pot easily gets the money in.

    With the heart coming in on the turn had hero bet the flop you have two options. Bet snd set your own price maybe fold vs raise (depending on size) or check and call depending on size.
  • CoolHandLukeCoolHandLuke Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    450 starting stack
    438 going to the flop
    373 left on the turn

    As played I dont see the need to shove 124bb on the turn. Do you really think he is stacking off with a hand like Ax10h on the turn when you are repping a flush yourself?

    Quite possibly given his style, but I do prefer your betting recommendations starting with leading for pot to get stacks in by river.

    I've been experimenting with different lines, last time I flopped a set on almost identical board against similar player I led for pot and he folded.
    With this guys high VPIP I let him do the betting for me (which he did).
    I definitely could've played the turn better.
    Thanks for your opinions guys!

  • ChibberChibber Red Chipper Posts: 378 ✭✭✭
    Like others have stated, leading this flop for value against Ax, FD, and SD is the better line even with the maniac in the hand. If he 3 bets your cbet, your always getting the money in here because he has 2 pair plus, a combo draw, naked flush draw, or a big Ace.

    I don't think you need to pot the flop though.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chibber wrote: »
    Like others have stated, leading this flop for value against Ax, FD, and SD is the better line even with the maniac in the hand. If he 3 bets your cbet, your always getting the money in here because he has 2 pair plus, a combo draw, naked flush draw, or a big Ace.

    I don't think you need to pot the flop though.

    I am potting the flop because they are fish or lags in the hand and Ax makes up a large part of their calling range. If the board was J62 rainbow then there is no need to pot the flop. Based on board texture and wide calling ranges its best to pot or even over bet for value. Why give them better odds to draw? Why allow them to make a small 2 bet? You can't really 3bet a cbet....

    I hope you are not thinking because they go from $60 to $180 its called a 3 bet.. i've had this debate many times and hope no red chippers are saying this.
  • CoolHandLukeCoolHandLuke Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    With the heart coming in on the turn had hero bet the flop you have two options. Bet snd set your own price maybe fold vs raise (depending on size) or check and call depending on size.

    I like leading turn but don't think I'm ever folding to a raise given villains range, plus the heart on the turn is perfect for villain to bluff/semi bluff at.
    If the river was also a heart I think a check fold is correct.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    With the heart coming in on the turn had hero bet the flop you have two options. Bet snd set your own price maybe fold vs raise (depending on size) or check and call depending on size.

    I like leading turn but don't think I'm ever folding to a raise given villains range, plus the heart on the turn is perfect for villain to bluff/semi bluff at.
    If the river was also a heart I think a check fold is correct.

    Gotta remember it was multiway, so given villains calling range on the flop would heavily be flush draws imo. Maybe you think players bluff more than they do.

    In low stakes there is not a lot of bluffing besides cbetting. We make money from them calling too much.
  • CoolHandLukeCoolHandLuke Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »

    With the heart coming in on the turn had hero bet the flop you have two options. Bet snd set your own price maybe fold vs raise (depending on size) or check and call depending on size.

    I like leading turn but don't think I'm ever folding to a raise given villains range, plus the heart on the turn is perfect for villain to bluff/semi bluff at.
    If the river was also a heart I think a check fold is correct.

    Gotta remember it was multiway, so given villains calling range on the flop would heavily be flush draws imo. Maybe you think players bluff more than they do.

    In low stakes there is not a lot of bluffing besides cbetting. We make money from them calling too much.

    I agree FD easily in his range. My line was an adjustment to this particular player given previous hands I'd seen him play, which on the flop worked out just as planned.

    Similar hand I heard on the podcast episode 40;

    @ZacShaw has AdKd in LP raise $15
    @SplitSuit has T9 in BB calls $15
    Pot $32
    Flop Q-J-8 (two diamonds)
    Zac bet $35, James raises to $105,
    Zac calls. Pot $242.
    Turn is a diamond and James shoves.
    Zac calls with nut flush.

    Not sure what the stacks were but I guess this makes a lot more sense if only 100BB deep.

    In the hand I played; are you ever check folding to a non heart river if you don't shove turn? My thoughts before shoving were that he would always call with a worse hand. Interested to also hear your thoughts @ZacShaw and @SplitSuit


  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can check call to keep his range wide on turn or river and give him a chance to bluff. Check raising or shoving yourself allows him to play optimally and only continue with better.

    In general I would bet the turn even if it was a heart and fold to a shove depending on the size and odds. Same thing on the river. Where a river raise is almost never a bluff so even given the odds I may make a hero fold on a 3rd heart.
  • ZacShawZacShaw Red Chipper Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
    @SplitSuit and I talked about this hand after the session and he made clear to me all the reasons I should have shoved the flop. I was drawing to the nut straight and flush with two overs. He's not flatting pre with AA, KK, QQ, JJ. Only a set of 8's or 10-9 made any sense, and I wasn't really thinking of 10-9 at all, so I instead put him on an aggro bluff. In retrospect, I should have realized he knew this flop could hit my range pretty well, and a bluff was unlikely.

    I was playing scared and my plan was to fold to his shove on the turn if a diamond or 10 didn't come, and hope that if it didn't he'd check behind, again, thinking he might be trying to pull an aggro move on me with the massive raise, knowing that I am a generally tight player.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    You can check call to keep his range wide on turn or river and give him a chance to bluff. Check raising or shoving yourself allows him to play optimally and only continue with better.

    In general I would bet the turn even if it was a heart and fold to a shove depending on the size and odds. Same thing on the river. Where a river raise is almost never a bluff so even given the odds I may make a hero fold on a 3rd heart.

    He can't C/C because he's in position
  • Mr. DontMr. Dont Red Chipper Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    ZacShaw wrote: »
    @SplitSuit and I talked about this hand after the session and he made clear to me all the reasons I should have shoved the flop. I was drawing to the nut straight and flush with two overs. He's not flatting pre with AA, KK, QQ, JJ. Only a set of 8's or 10-9 made any sense, and I wasn't really thinking of 10-9 at all, so I instead put him on an aggro bluff. In retrospect, I should have realized he knew this flop could hit my range pretty well, and a bluff was unlikely.

    I was playing scared and my plan was to fold to his shove on the turn if a diamond or 10 didn't come, and hope that if it didn't he'd check behind, again, thinking he might be trying to pull an aggro move on me with the massive raise, knowing that I am a generally tight player.

    do you remember what SPR was after you got raised? Unless you guys were super deep(and I believe it wasn't) I think its easy shove over reraise. I shove always in that spot.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Austin wrote: »
    You can check call to keep his range wide on turn or river and give him a chance to bluff. Check raising or shoving yourself allows him to play optimally and only continue with better.

    In general I would bet the turn even if it was a heart and fold to a shove depending on the size and odds. Same thing on the river. Where a river raise is almost never a bluff so even given the odds I may make a hero fold on a 3rd heart.

    He can't C/C because he's in position

    hero is UTG
    VIllain is in HiJack.

    my comment was referring to the initial post of hero having 66 on A64hh.

    Maybe you referring to zachs hand regarding splitsuit?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    You can check call to keep his range wide on turn or river and give him a chance to bluff. Check raising or shoving yourself allows him to play optimally and only continue with better.

    In general I would bet the turn even if it was a heart and fold to a shove depending on the size and odds. Same thing on the river. Where a river raise is almost never a bluff so even given the odds I may make a hero fold on a 3rd heart.

    He can't C/C because he's in position

    hero is UTG
    VIllain is in HiJack.

    You're right sorry - I was reading @ZacShaw hand with AKdd
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    I think this is a fairly easy...

    Bet Flop
    Bet/Call Turn (based on price * bluff frequency)
    Check/Fold (if never bluffing and never smashing twopr)
  • CoolHandLukeCoolHandLuke Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    Looking back at this hand:
    With an SPR just over 7, I made a huge mistake check shoving the turn. With 124 BB's left on the turn, bet/calling turn then seeing what the river brings would've been a much better line.

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