Never Limp. Some questions.

MGPTMGPT Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
edited February 2 in General Concepts
Sorry if this has been flogged to death on here already. I've just started The Course video series and have some questions about the whole never limping concept.

So there are 3 limpers and we have ATs in the HJ. Do we raise/limp/fold?

We have QJs UTG+1. Do we raise/limp/fold?

There are 3 limpers and we have 44 on the BTN. Do we raise/limp/fold?

If we take a big chunk of very playable but not premium hands like suited aces, suited broadway, suited connectors and low pairs and never limp or overlimp with them it means we are either folding or raising them.

Folding such playable hands seems like a bad idea, especially if we feel we have a postflop edge on our opponents.

Raising them would surely weaken our ranges enough to make us fairly exploitable and have us playing lower SPR pots with medium holdings a lot more often.

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Comments

  • LukaLuka Red Chipper Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    How deep is your game?
    Is the game passive? Loose?
    What are some general traits of your game?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Definitely do not fold 44.

    Never and always should be removed from the language of a poker player. The game is too fluid for those words to hold any weight.

    I have always been critical of the "Never Limp" concept. I also think my partners have come over to my side and agree with me now. If you find the hand to be more optimally played as a limp, and your reasons are sound, go ahead and limp.
  • MGPTMGPT Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Never and always should be removed from the language of a poker player. The game is too fluid for those words to hold any weight.

    Yes I agree totally with this. I definitely feel like 2/5 players limp way too much and agree with Ed's reasons as to why this is generally a bad idea, but I still feel limping and especially overlimping has it's place.

    A follow on question would be, what kind of range are we squeezing multiple limps when in position?

    So 3 limps ahead of us and we are on CO. Which part of our range are we overlimping with and which part are we raising? Obviously this depends on the characteristics of the players involved and other factors but as a general guide how do we construct a overlimp and limp-squeeze range in these very common spots?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Well first of all, I think the "general rule" you're referring to is "never limp first in". So in your examples with limpers, those calls are totally fine. The issue is when you "open" the pot, i.e. there are no limpers before you.

    Personally, I think of this more as a "crutch" or "learning challenge". If you're given this constraint, it will really make you think about which hands you want to play and how you should be playing them.

    You'll notice a lot of bad players limp a lot. So the first step is to get away from this habit. But then once you're more advanced in your skills, you can limp in certain situations again (first in).

    Personally I want the option to limp sometimes, so I try to mix up my play accordingly, so my opponents don't necessarily know what that means. For example, maybe I'll raise AA/KK 4 out of 5 times, but the other time I might limp and that helps cover a few other hands when I have something I really don't want to play for a raise for whatever reason. If they're scared I'll limp/reraise if I'm UTG, then they're not going to keep raising if I limp. That's just one example but you get the idea.

    It's sometimes amazing that against certain players, if they limp and you raise they'll fold every time. They only limp with the weaker end of their range, and unless you're a maniac they're not going to mess with your stronger raising range. This works a lot against players who are good enough to know how to fold a hand, but not good enough to stop limping too much.
  • ZENIZENZENIZEN Red Chipper Posts: 166 ✭✭
    edited September 2016
    Like anything limping is a tool similar to raising and folding . I believe Ed Miller is targeting beginning players with that advice simply because it is done incorrectly so often . Many indeed limp far to often without realizing what the limp is accomplishing . Are there fish involved you wanna keep in the hand ? Also remember SPR is gonna be altered later on in the hand by the number of callers on later streets . Is one of the guys in the blinds gonna laugh and raise with impunity at that point simply out of principle ? Is the game weak enough that your gonna be called down to the river with 2 pair when you hit your set ? Will you be able to generate enough aggression post flop to get draws to fold ? Do you want them to fold ? What boards do you continue on multiway ? So many variables to consider. Comes down to having a plan for the hand .
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    MGPT wrote: »
    So 3 limps ahead of us and we are on CO. Which part of our range are we overlimping with and which part are we raising?

    Can you sometimes limp and sometimes squeeze with the same hand?

    So let's say I have X number of hands that I'm willing to limp along with on the button, if others have limped. Well, if I raised all those hands, it would be too much. But if I limp with 2/3 or 3/4 of them and squeeze only 1/4 of them, I can get away with representing strength more and getting folds, either preflop or by c-betting.

    I'm happy with limping along with T9s, and I'm also happy squeezing with it sometimes. I can't really imagine limping along with AA, and I suppose super attentive opponents would notice that if I limp, I never have AA in that spot, but given the number of times I'm actually dealt AA in this spot, and given the attention spans of most of my opponents, and given how little that can even hurt me even if they knew, I'm really not too worried about that.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    ZENIZEN wrote: »
    Also remember SPR is gonna be altered later on in the hand by the number of callers on later streets ....Comes down to having a plan for the hand .

    Yup. Straight outta Professional No Limit Holdem Vol. 1, basically :)

  • luckyJGluckyJG Red Chipper Posts: 27
    i think ed is saying to not limp for a few reasons here. 1) they can't say you don't have xx here 2) everyone else is limping, play like everyone else, get their results 3) their mistake is limping then CALLING a raise where they should be folding. so, raise with your stronger range than they have. now you are a favorite as far as ranges go. 4) they may start to play back at your aggression, giving you an opportunity to stack them while at the same time never giving them your stack (fold to huge bet)
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    I find any swooping phrase like this gimmicky.

    Even targeted at beginners, it's just not a good way to get anyone to understand the why, which in turn does not allow for an understanding of the deviants.
    Which frankly is the entire game of poker; why's & deviants.

    There are a multitude of reasons to limp and not to limp. Or even limp first in as some have referenced in this thread. But we are not able to explore that reasoning under this premise.

    It's just a very patchy way of addressing a leak, which can have long term affects on the thinking ability of the player.

    It's an approach I disagree with.

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