Poker Coaching

Adrian RactliffeAdrian Ractliffe Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
This one is directed at James Sweeney, or any other poker coach reading this.
I have James say multiple times for beginners not to jump straight into coaching so I wanted to know when should you be looking at getting one?
What parts of our game/topics should we have masted before even thinking about getting a one-one coaching class. How do we know when we are ready.

Comments

  • dirty moosedirty moose Red Chipper Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    Give us a little background about yourself.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Give us a little background about yourself.

    +1 =)
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  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭
    So I just recently booked future one-on-one coaching. This is a coach I have a history with, and have a level of comfort with, as far as our teaching and learning styles. That being said I am spending some time on my own, and creating a bit of an outline of the things I want to discuss, before even beginning again my discussions with him.

    I think it is important for you to be able to take a bit of a leadership role in your education. My advice would be for you to understand some of your own current weaknesses and strengths before even contacting a coach. Spend a decent amount of time thinking about your game and how it interacts with your player pool.

    Most likely the coach will shed light on additional things you may need work on of course. But in my experience I was not as prepared as I could have been before contacting a coach for lessons. Time is money when paying for coaching. Every minute you spend before your sessions clearly defining what you feel you need to talk to your coach about is money saved for you.

    It would be very difficult for me or anyone else to tell you what you might need help with. Or if you even should pay for coaching at this point of your development. Enlisting the help of a coach can certainly speed up your learning process. It might even be a great investment. However, it does not allow you to skip the work. If anything it might lead you in the direction of a shit-ton more work than you thought. That of course would be a good thing.

    cXt
  • Adrian RactliffeAdrian Ractliffe Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    I'm a beginner just starting out. I've only been playing online for 4 months and have just started playing live once a week at my local hotel. I've been watching a ton of videos on YouTube and red chip, Reading forums and have just bought ed millers the Course book. I'm just starting to build an opening/3 betting range and learning how to play my premium hands well. I find there is so much to learn in poker and don't know where to start and I believe with a coach they can put you in the right direction sooner and can tell me the things I have to focus on first. James and chipxtractor, you guys are legends and thanks dirty moose for your time.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, you are off to a good start Adrian. All James has done is ask for some background on you and you've already disagreed with him, that's worse than me lol
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    my recommendation if ure literally starting out is to go and learn all the free YouTube videos James Splitsuit has on YouTube under the poker bank, there is a playlist called poker quick plays

    try to master all those fundamentals and im sure it will steer you in the direction of some videos here in Red chip that will probably clarify a topic even further

    once you feel like you got that that all down packed and you need more, then get a coach. If you dont have those things down packed plus how it all works together the coach will just teach you those things you could had learn in the YouTube or Red Chip videos.
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  • Adrian RactliffeAdrian Ractliffe Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Really appreciate the comments.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Sounds like the new crash course being offered here by RCP is right up your alley.
    listen to Doug talk about how it will be available and what it entails in this weeks RCP podcast.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I'm a beginner just starting out. I've only been playing online for 4 months and have just started playing live once a week at my local hotel. I've been watching a ton of videos on YouTube and red chip, Reading forums and have just bought ed millers the Course book. I'm just starting to build an opening/3 betting range and learning how to play my premium hands well. I find there is so much to learn in poker and don't know where to start and I believe with a coach they can put you in the right direction sooner and can tell me the things I have to focus on first. James and chipxtractor, you guys are legends and thanks dirty moose for your time.

    Before getting coaching you should have enough knowledge under your belt to be able to articulate some of your leaks. If you aren't there yet, keep learning (some of the resources mentioned by others are great), and keep writing down hands/concepts that stump you along the way.

    You may find that as you learn more you begin to answer those hands/concepts and don't end up needing a coach as quickly as you thought...
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,396 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of the many things I have learned or in this case, relearned and been reminded of, thanks to Imperator, it is the value of a mentor. If I could do my poker career over, I would have hired a coach once a year to go over where my game was at and get guidance. I fortunately had some friends who in a sense, fulfilled this role, but it could have been a lot faster and smoother and I would doubtlessly be a better, more successful player at each step along the way.
  • Mr. DontMr. Dont Red Chipper Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Do all you can do, and make some if not a lot, mistakes. I know Im like a baby poker wise, and tons of areas, steps to learn, imrove, and 100% sure hiring coach will improve me tremendously. However, should I hire a coach now, Nope. I still need to do practice my own, analyze leaks, how to fix it, etc...I think give a little bit of time to yourself, and sure youll get an better idea when would be right ir better time fir you to hire one.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    there's a huge money issue here that should probably be addressed as well...
    hiring a coach can easily cost you $100 an hour.

    if you're playing 5NL on line... meaning that you're max buy-in is $5... the cost of you coach is 20 buy-ins! I don't know how often you win 20 buy-ins, but that's a lot of virtual chips!

    now, what if you're playing live?
    well, you should be buying in for at least 100 - but may you're buying in for 300.
    that's also a very big portion of your bankroll/buy-in. how do you determine if it's worth it? what's you win rate? An average 1/2 or 1/3 winrate for a beginner is often $15 or less. So for every 6 to 7 hours of WINNING poker, you pay for one hour lesson.
    That's one full uneventful session! How many sessions do you plan on putting in a week?

    I'm not trying to discourage you from seeking a coach. The good ones are worth their weight in gold. But if you're not bankrolled to play in the bigger games where you can win the biggest pots - hiring a coach isn't really economically feasible.

    finding a mentor or starting a study group or posting on free forums are typically the best ways to improve the fastest. also subscribing to a training site like this can also tremendously improve how you view the game - and it's typically the most cost-effective way to learn the game from pros.

    hope this helps.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016
    I'll say this though...

    I wouldn't be the player I am today without having hired @Matt Berkey for $300 a lesson ~3 years ago for cash. (Now he charges $600 if you're lucky)
    We became really good friends over time but I needed him, and looking back at it I got a bargain because it has paid for itself many times over.

    Currently, I retain "Gags30" at $125 a lesson for MTT lessons which he's paid for many lesson in advance for. I also have Mark "Dipthrong" Herm coaching me through a business relationship we have. I've certainly gained EV in tournaments through their guidance.

    Building a skill set can pay for itself many times over and you are investing heavily in yourself. It's not the cheapest endeavor but it has been worth it for me.

    Now, I think hiring someone is a process you should take seriously.
    How good is the person in your opinion in comparison to the Elite (sometimes you get what you pay for), what does the poker community think of them, what makes them different than the masses, who are their friends (this is kind of underrated but usually good players have good friends), do they have winnings, what vibe do they give you? All these questions matter along with many others.

    This is my 2cents.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, I mean a coach could cost $100/hr. Or he could cost $600/hr. Or he could cost $35/hr. Sometimes you "get what you pay for", and sometimes there are bargains to be had as well.

    I will say this though. There is very little point in hiring a really expensive coach when you are still learning the fundamentals of the game that can be learned from books or forums or just talking to good players for free. It's like a golf coach. Why hire Butch Harmon when your handicap is 28? There's just no sense in it. Butch Harmon charges $1,000/hr, and you could get just as much improvement at $50/hr, at least until you're a 10 handicap. Hell, then move on to someone who charges $100! After you've earned your PGA Tour card, then invest in Butch.
  • thepokermonkthepokermonk Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    there's a huge money issue here that should probably be addressed as well...
    hiring a coach can easily cost you $100 an hour.

    if you're playing 5NL on line... meaning that you're max buy-in is $5... the cost of you coach is 20 buy-ins! I don't know how often you win 20 buy-ins, but that's a lot of virtual chips!

    now, what if you're playing live?
    well, you should be buying in for at least 100 - but may you're buying in for 300.
    that's also a very big portion of your bankroll/buy-in. how do you determine if it's worth it? what's you win rate? An average 1/2 or 1/3 winrate for a beginner is often $15 or less. So for every 6 to 7 hours of WINNING poker, you pay for one hour lesson.
    That's one full uneventful session! How many sessions do you plan on putting in a week?

    I'm not trying to discourage you from seeking a coach. The good ones are worth their weight in gold. But if you're not bankrolled to play in the bigger games where you can win the biggest pots - hiring a coach isn't really economically feasible.

    finding a mentor or starting a study group or posting on free forums are typically the best ways to improve the fastest. also subscribing to a training site like this can also tremendously improve how you view the game - and it's typically the most cost-effective way to learn the game from pros.

    hope this helps.

    I'm not sure this is the right way to look at the financial issue of hiring a coach. It's an investment in your future. You look at the price of college in relation to your future earnings, not your current earnings. And I think it's the same for hiring a coach. I have two coaches right now, not because I want to improve as a $1/$2 player but because I want to get out of $1/$2 and move on to $2/$5 and $5/$10. If it helps me get there and I'm a winning player at those levels, it will more than justify the cost of coaching. It's only a bad deal if I'm losing or planning to stay at my current stakes.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure this is the right way to look at the financial issue of hiring a coach. It's an investment in your future. You look at the price of college in relation to your future earnings, not your current earnings. And I think it's the same for hiring a coach. I have two coaches right now, not because I want to improve as a $1/$2 player but because I want to get out of $1/$2 and move on to $2/$5 and $5/$10. If it helps me get there and I'm a winning player at those levels, it will more than justify the cost of coaching. It's only a bad deal if I'm losing or planning to stay at my current stakes.

    Geez, you're a poker pro @thepokermonk . your goal is to make money at the tables.
    This thread isn't about your journey.

    if you read OP's post - he says he's a beginner who wants to know what he should know before getting a coach.

    Before you sell him on "investing on his future" - shouldn't we first know more about what he expects his future to hold? Maybe he only plays poker once a paycheck and only has $100 to play recreationally. Maybe he just plays in a home game for nickles and dimes. Maybe he's just going to play online on weekends. You really can't determine what's a good investment until you know a person's full story.

    For example: Would advise someone to take a $10K seminar on how to beat the stock market when that person's only got $500 to invest?

    This is a cost/reward kind of situation.
    Nobody has said that coaching is bad.

    I'm simply suggesting that OP should review his bankroll before diving into an expensive venture that might never pay off.

    One-on-one coaching is by far the best and fastest way to improve your game. But along with that comes the hours you need to study, and hours to play.
    Poker is knowledge multiplied by opportunity. If OP doesn't have the funds or time to perfect his game and keep moving up... having all the knowledge in the world ain't gonna win him a bracelet. Training sites are the lesser expensive alternative.
  • thepokermonkthepokermonk Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I'm not sure this is the right way to look at the financial issue of hiring a coach. It's an investment in your future. You look at the price of college in relation to your future earnings, not your current earnings. And I think it's the same for hiring a coach. I have two coaches right now, not because I want to improve as a $1/$2 player but because I want to get out of $1/$2 and move on to $2/$5 and $5/$10. If it helps me get there and I'm a winning player at those levels, it will more than justify the cost of coaching. It's only a bad deal if I'm losing or planning to stay at my current stakes.

    Geez, you're a poker pro @thepokermonk . your goal is to make money at the tables.
    This thread isn't about your journey.

    if you read OP's post - he says he's a beginner who wants to know what he should know before getting a coach.

    Before you sell him on "investing on his future" - shouldn't we first know more about what he expects his future to hold? Maybe he only plays poker once a paycheck and only has $100 to play recreationally. Maybe he just plays in a home game for nickles and dimes. Maybe he's just going to play online on weekends. You really can't determine what's a good investment until you know a person's full story.

    For example: Would advise someone to take a $10K seminar on how to beat the stock market when that person's only got $500 to invest?

    This is a cost/reward kind of situation.
    Nobody has said that coaching is bad.

    I'm simply suggesting that OP should review his bankroll before diving into an expensive venture that might never pay off.

    One-on-one coaching is by far the best and fastest way to improve your game. But along with that comes the hours you need to study, and hours to play.
    Poker is knowledge multiplied by opportunity. If OP doesn't have the funds or time to perfect his game and keep moving up... having all the knowledge in the world ain't gonna win him a bracelet. Training sites are the lesser expensive alternative.

    I agree with everything you said. I guess I was speaking in more general terms and not specifically to the original poster's post. More about why anyone might want to invest in coaching. Didn't mean to offend. Sorry.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I'm not sure this is the right way to look at the financial issue of hiring a coach. It's an investment in your future. You look at the price of college in relation to your future earnings, not your current earnings. And I think it's the same for hiring a coach. I have two coaches right now, not because I want to improve as a $1/$2 player but because I want to get out of $1/$2 and move on to $2/$5 and $5/$10. If it helps me get there and I'm a winning player at those levels, it will more than justify the cost of coaching. It's only a bad deal if I'm losing or planning to stay at my current stakes.

    Geez, you're a poker pro @thepokermonk . your goal is to make money at the tables.
    This thread isn't about your journey.

    if you read OP's post - he says he's a beginner who wants to know what he should know before getting a coach.

    Before you sell him on "investing on his future" - shouldn't we first know more about what he expects his future to hold? Maybe he only plays poker once a paycheck and only has $100 to play recreationally. Maybe he just plays in a home game for nickles and dimes. Maybe he's just going to play online on weekends. You really can't determine what's a good investment until you know a person's full story.

    For example: Would advise someone to take a $10K seminar on how to beat the stock market when that person's only got $500 to invest?

    This is a cost/reward kind of situation.
    Nobody has said that coaching is bad.

    I'm simply suggesting that OP should review his bankroll before diving into an expensive venture that might never pay off.

    One-on-one coaching is by far the best and fastest way to improve your game. But along with that comes the hours you need to study, and hours to play.
    Poker is knowledge multiplied by opportunity. If OP doesn't have the funds or time to perfect his game and keep moving up... having all the knowledge in the world ain't gonna win him a bracelet. Training sites are the lesser expensive alternative.

    I agree with everything you said. I guess I was speaking in more general terms and not specifically to the original poster's post. More about why anyone might want to invest in coaching. Didn't mean to offend. Sorry.

    I dont think you have to be sorry nor do i think you said anything wrong, you simply stated a different perspective on how to look at the posters current situation and concern

    I think you stated a valid point thaf i agree with. When i started working with @Christian Soto i was still playing 5nl and 10nl online as practice with live 1/2 as well and moved on since then. Its like you mentioned ure investing now for a possible greater returrn in the near future.

    I still agree with my point that you should master as much fundamental material you could find. Once you feel like you know all those topics pretty well 2) cant find anything new and 3)need to expand and gain more than what's available or simply want to find different ways to win, then yes you def need a coach
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