KK against a Semi Passive-Fish

rjevskiyrjevskiy Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
edited January 2015 in Online Poker Hands
Online hand
- $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players

Hero (CO): $31.61
BTN: $84.45 (VPIP: 20.63, PFR: 12.70, 3Bet Preflop: 4.21, Hands: 319)
SB: $20.49 (VPIP: 27.88, PFR: 12.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.23, Hands: 1,372)
BB: $19.26 (VPIP: 20.07, PFR: 9.00, 3Bet Preflop: 2.15, Hands: 292)
UTG: $33.34 (VPIP: 16.03, PFR: 11.88, 3Bet Preflop: 6.28, Hands: 6,337)
UTG+1: $13.65 (VPIP: 20.61, PFR: 5.70, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, Hands: 231)
MP: $18.05 (VPIP: 14.77, PFR: 9.51, 3Bet Preflop: 3.92, Hands: 1,727)
MP+1: $12.36 (VPIP: 22.34, PFR: 10.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.57, Hands: 1,024)

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has K:club: K:spade:

fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.25, BTN calls $1.25, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $1.00

Flop: ($4.10, 3 players) 8:heart: 2:heart: Q:club:
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $3.07, BTN calls $3.07, fold

Turn: ($10.24, 2 players) 3:club:
Hero bets $7.68, BTN raises to $15.36

What would you do? Hiding next moves as I like opinions and reason why
Villain is P-Fish based on HUD and 320 hands, Cold Calls 2Bet 31% (15/48), Folds to CBet 43% (6/14) and 3Bets only 4% (4/95). Also, in this session we played 146 hands and he is up $31.


  • rjevskiyrjevskiy Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    any takers on what to do?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You didn't state your stats, recent table history, or how you're perceived. But we have to go based on what info you tell us. The most important thing might be that your opponent is a passive fish (his basic stats don't necessarily look like it to me, but I'll take your word on it.) If so, a mini-raise on the turn by a passive fish means that you're behind 100% of the time, no matter what you have :) I know the analysis might be more complicated than that, but I'm just sayin'....

    If the idea of folding here nauseates you, then you either need to relabel the passive fish, or you need to pay off some more passive-fish-turn-mini-raises until you accept it.

    Against a more aggressive fish, or a less fishy player, then every once in awhile you'll see a flush draw here, by someone who thinks they're getting good fold equity, and when they don't get folds at least they're risking the minimum draw price.
  • rjevskiyrjevskiy Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    My stats would depend if Villain uses HUD or not. If he is he would see my VPIP:11, PFR: 10, 3Bet: 4. This specific session we had 150 hands together and I would say my stats about same. However, Villain plays 20% of hands and Cold Calls 31% of hands (have this in HUD during game). I know he would call with any pair and for sure raise with AA as his 3Bet is 4% (4/95 hands and does seem like raises with top pairs). I do see many players with similar stats do take staubs at pots with small raises. I would for sure fold to bigger raise, but Pot was already $33 and $7 to call is hard to believe he has set. With so many other hands that he can have I did think set was smaller chance.
    What type of player do you think he is? Playing 20% of hands is a lot and raising 2/3 of them does not show as aggresive. Why would you think min raise means he has a strong hand? I just think fold here could mean I am folding too much.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I guess I am saying 2 things.

    First, a stat of 20/14 doesn't seem particularly fishy or passive to me. In fact, it seems basically within the realm of tight aggressive. A passive fish will have a stat more like 30/6.

    Second, a mini-raise on the turn by a passive fish almost always means a monster.

    I'm not saying your opponent has a monster here, because I don't think we've agreed that he's a passive fish. If he is a passive fish and min-raises you on the turn, you can basically always fold unless you have a monster yourself. On the other hand, a min-raise on the turn by a different type of player could mean something different, depending on the player. For example, a very good player might min-raise on the turn, against another player who he perceives as good enough to lay down a hand, to mimic the well known play that means the nuts. He's hoping you perceive it that way so you'll fold almost everything. He gets max value for min risk this way. It's also risky, because most players call min-raises if they have anything, because they just haven't learned the lesson of what it means yet.
  • rjevskiyrjevskiy Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    If we forget about type of a player and just look at some data on him, during a hand not much time to go into details on anyone and playing multi tables. He was winning based on his stack, but if he was good player would he call with QA preflop and not raise? I did not think he had a hand yet and more like on a draw or top pair. Thats what I put him on

    I went all in and he call with pair :2c:2s and won with a set of deuces.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure a good player might just call your raise preflop with AQ.

    As to your question, if not looking at any other information - if I get min-raised in a spot like this, I assume he has 88 or 22 as most likely hands. QQ is also possible but that is usually reraised preflop - not always (a lot of players who play QQ like to see a flop without A or K before committing more.) Q8 is also possible at the bottom of the range. AQ does not usually min-raise - the turn min-raise is usually for monsters - or whatever the player thinks is a monster in his mind.
  • rjevskiyrjevskiy Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    That the thing, I had my share of passive players calling too much and when they raised they usually have a hand. I learn it hard way. But lately I seen many small raises, like in this hand, and players have weak hand and just bluffing. My concern, if I fold Kings here does it mean I am folding correctly or too much?
    Another possible way to play was to just call small raise and check on River and if he bets large to fold.
    How different would this small raise be from when player Donks on a Flop into Preflop Aggressor?
    Do you think these bad players bluff versus betting for value is so small that folding in this situation would not be considered "folding too much" but a correct action to FOLD?

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