3 questionable hands

FishermanFisherman Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
edited November 2016 in Tournament Poker Hands
Bubbled on day 1 at SOCAL poker champs last weekend at Commerce and these are the 3 questionable hands that have been bugging me.....

Hand 1:
Sb/bb around 150/300; villain UTG pushes with 3k (hand prior lost a larger cooler and he was tilty)
Folds to Hero in early-mid position with pocket 10s and ~16 k stack. I call. (Is this a no brainer shove?)
Action folds to LAG button who shoves over top....I fold and he turns over pocket 9s.
Optimal play in early-mid position with pocket 10s? call, raise, or ship?

Hand 2:
Blinds are 400/800 with 75 ante.
Action folds to Hero (stack size ~40k) opens to 2200 with pocket 9s.
SB (TAG-ish with stack size ~45k) calls; others fold.
Flop comes J33 rainbow.
SB checks.
I tank and then cbet ~4500.
SB tanks and then shoves all in.
I fold. He also shows pocket 9s.
What is a better play here?

Hand 3:
Blinds 400/800 with 75 ante
Hero (~30k stack) opens early position 2200 with KQo.
Folds to middle position TAG who shoves with ~8-10k.
Folds to Hero; I call and dominated by AKo.
Flop, turn, river run out to a A high straight.
Better to call, fold, raise and then call or fold to all - in preflop bet here?

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey Fisherman -
    I'll take a stab... but hopefully tourney pros like @Christian Soto and @Gazellig will pop in and give you better advice.

    First: I have to say - I don't think any of these hands come with slam-dunk answers.
    It seems to me that all three are Villain-dependent.
    Meaning - hopefully you've spent enough time with them that you got some reads.
    And have picked up on their tendencies.

    Since I don't know any of this... I'm going to offer some perspective based on playing "unknowns."

    Hand 1:
    A tilted UTG shoves for 3k. We've got 16k.
    If we knew that button is Laggy and likely to make moves we have 2 choices:
    a.) call and hope he comes in too - or over the top
    b.) shove and force him to fold out his equity

    As played - I often just smooth call here because it tells the rest of the table that I'm strong... and they should respect my call. (BTW - this also depends on YOUR image - as to whether or not you're weak tight, tight aggressive or loose.)
    So I don't mind your play. But if there are aggro guys behind me that might call with KQ or AJ or weaker hands that have a lot of equity vs TT, I'd be more inclined to shove.

    So my final answer is.... it depends.
    and once you call and V2 shoves, unless you know he'll do this with worse hands (which NOW we know) - I think a fold is fine.

    Hand 2:
    We open with 99.
    Flop is J33 and we bet near-pot.
    I don't like this.
    This is a scared bet - and the flop is something that we should have whiffed.
    In the real world - if we raised with A3 or JJ, we're probably never betting the flop.
    And if we were - it probably would be one of those small "same bet" kind of c-bets.
    right?
    So IMO, your c-bet looks like AK.
    And it invites a tough opponent to rep what we obviously can't have.
    Even if I had AJs - I think I'd check back the flop.
    At best, V's got a J and we're toast.
    Or he's got 2 overs and he's got 6 outs.
    At worse, we've got him crushed (he's got 76s or 44) - and he ain't winning this pot.
    So in my mind - because we're in a tourney - I'm playing a bit cautious on a flop that doesn't favor me... and I'm going to see whe V does on the turn.
    AP - we HAVE to fold. (that's why I don't bet)

    Hand 3:
    I don't know if I'm being results-oriented here - but I really don't like an open from EP with KQos with short stacks behind me.
    I know we're more profitable opening our hands than limping - and in cash games - KQos is in my EP range... But this is one of those hands that I hate building a pot oop unless I know my table to be super passive/foldy and I have a god-like image.
    Once you bet - and V shoves for 10bb - I think the push/fold charts say this is an insta-call.
    So if there's a mistake - it's opening KQos...
    but again... it depends on the game flow, table dynamics and if you're using Harrington's watch method and the second hand tells you to do so!!


    So in conclusion... I don't think you made major mistakes. And unfortuately, you got yourself in some tough situations that I'm not sure have black & white answers.

    Hope this offers some food of thought...
    In the future - try using the "spoiler" function in the forums to hide the results.
    It allows posters to avoid knowing the answer - and makes them think more in "optimal" play as opposed to hindsight solutions... which is probably what I did.
    GL in your next tourney.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,710 -
    It is better to post hands separately for a more coherent discussion on each.

    Thanks!
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • FishermanFisherman Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Thanks @Doug Hull will do next time.

    @kagey ; Thanks for the insights. I agree on the misplay of hand 2.
    Hand 3 - I was not happy 'waking up' with KQo in EP with a decent stack. Given there was only 2 small stacks I took the chance but could've folded that as well.

    Thanks!
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Hand 1 - how much does the BTN shove? (Sorry if I missed it) In these spots, always think about whether you have a range of hands you will call the shove and fold to further action first. If you can profitably call a hand like 88 there, but you don't want to jam to open up your 50bb stack then calling makes a lot of sense to give you room to fold should someone jam over the top. Similarly, you flat with AA and you're much happier calling it off. TT is pretty close in this spot and that's why I'd need to know how much the BTN is shoving.

    Hand 2 - think about what you're trying to achieve with your flop bet. Whilst not limited to this range, a lot of SB's flatting range will be broadways and pairs. If our bet is to get value from worse pairs and fold out some over cards while at the same time losing the minimum versus the AJ,KJ,QJ,JT in his range, then a smaller bet works best. Is 2/3 pot your standard here? You can bet a lot smaller in tournaments and you can bet much smaller on this dry of a board. I would either bet 1/3 pot with range (everything in your range) or check back. As played his jam is huge and not a good play on his part - he has a tremendous amount of fold equity, but loses a huge amount when you have top pair or better. Sometimes you get bluffed (!) and that's ok.

    Hand 3 - I really like your open with KQo - the short stacks still have to find a hand to make a move and you block some of those hands significantly. As played, I actually think you can fold versus the jam. If he has 8k then you need 32% equity to call which most people would have you believe that you should call with any two cards. However, if his range is 99+,AJs+,AQo+ then you only have 30% equity and can't call. This is a common misconception, especially among tournament players. You raised from EP and then a shortstack with very little perceived fold equity jams on you - how likely is it that he's wider than the range above? I definitely recommend using something like Poker Cruncher, Flopzilla or Equilab to look at how your hand(s) is/are doing versus different ranges. Obviously if we think he's shoving wider then KQo is much much closer. Also, if he has closer to 10k you need 35.5% equity.

    I also think you can raise much smaller than 2200 (2.75x) when the stacks get shorter - you'll save yourself chips when someone jams and the spot becomes much easier to play, e.g. you open to 1800 and 8k shoves, now you need 34.5% equity instead.
  • FishermanFisherman Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @Gazellig thanks for your feedback!

    Hand 1 - BTN has same stack as me roughly (16k or 50+ bbs). So yea, ballsy play that he afterward said he would've folded had I jammed (obviously).

    Hand 2 - Yes I'm trying to gain value from my worse pair and lose min to the QJ+ holdings or better. 2/3 pot bet is the highest of my betting range that, in this spot, is between 1/3 - 2/3 of the pot. I wanted to show more strength than a 1/3 pot bet.

    Hand 3 - I agree a short stacks range when re raising from mid position is 99+, AJ+. And thanks for the insight on raising less with smaller stacks at the table. That's what in my mind priced me into the pot.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gazellig wrote: »
    Hand 3 - I really like your open with KQo - the short stacks still have to find a hand to make a move and you block some of those hands significantly. As played, I actually think you can fold versus the jam. If he has 8k then you need 32% equity to call which most people would have you believe that you should call with any two cards. However, if his range is 99+,AJs+,AQo+ then you only have 30% equity and can't call.

    Thanks for chiming in @Gazellig
    Nice to have someone with lots o' experience add to conversation.
    But still scratching my head on Hand 3...
    If you look at push/fold charts for 10BB full ring - V should be wider than 99+,AJs+,AQo+. So our KQos should have around 45% equity vs the p/f player 5's range.

    s5boyr6fks7r.tiff

    are you narrowing V's range because we opened?
    I assumed the push/fold charts were applicable even when a big stack opened.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    Glad to know I'm not the only one that finds myself in these situations. :)

    Hand 1: I would just flat with the tens as well from middle position. As @Gazellig said you don't need to be shipping your 50bb stack with tens. Also as @kagey said it really is player dependent on how lite they may be shipping here. Frustrating to be shown 9's, but if you had called and he had a hand that dominates you it would have been sickening. The result is frustrating, but you made a good pre flop decision.

    Hand 2: If he bluffed you he bluffed you. Crazy shove on his part. I don't think you needed to c bet so much. You could have even checked and went into check call mode? I don't know if that would have worked with this maniac.

    Hand 3: KQ is tough. I don't think it is such a bad call, but I think it is a close call and you can get away from it. There's about 14k in the pot after your raise, blinds, antes and his stack if he had 10k. You raise 2200 and now you have to call 7800 more to win 14k. Ugggggg so close. I have put myself in spots like this more then I care to share. This is what you have to be prepared for though when you raise with a hand like this from early position.

    These were great hand questions. I'm obviously not as seasoned as @Gazellig and @kagey . That is my 2 cents. :)
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Gazellig wrote: »
    Hand 3 - I really like your open with KQo - the short stacks still have to find a hand to make a move and you block some of those hands significantly. As played, I actually think you can fold versus the jam. If he has 8k then you need 32% equity to call which most people would have you believe that you should call with any two cards. However, if his range is 99+,AJs+,AQo+ then you only have 30% equity and can't call.

    Thanks for chiming in @Gazellig
    Nice to have someone with lots o' experience add to conversation.
    But still scratching my head on Hand 3...
    If you look at push/fold charts for 10BB full ring - V should be wider than 99+,AJs+,AQo+. So our KQos should have around 45% equity vs the p/f player 5's range.

    s5boyr6fks7r.tiff

    are you narrowing V's range because we opened?
    I assumed the push/fold charts were applicable even when a big stack opened.

    Yeah, 99% of all push/fold charts are for when the pot is unopened. When we're facing a raise our shoving range needs to be much tighter - otherwise at 10bb you'd end up shoving 70% of hands in the SB versus an open, which is obviously not correct. Their range will depend on lots of factors including position, stage of the tournament, type of player etc and as such our shoving range over that raise should change based on all of those factors.
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Fisherman wrote: »
    @Gazellig thanks for your feedback!

    Hand 1 - BTN has same stack as me roughly (16k or 50+ bbs). So yea, ballsy play that he afterward said he would've folded had I jammed (obviously).

    Hand 2 - Yes I'm trying to gain value from my worse pair and lose min to the QJ+ holdings or better. 2/3 pot bet is the highest of my betting range that, in this spot, is between 1/3 - 2/3 of the pot. I wanted to show more strength than a 1/3 pot bet.

    Hand 3 - I agree a short stacks range when re raising from mid position is 99+, AJ+. And thanks for the insight on raising less with smaller stacks at the table. That's what in my mind priced me into the pot.

    You're welcome!

    OK so Hand 1 - if UTG is shoving say 55+,ATs+,AJo+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs then we can only call TT+,AQs+,AKo without opening ourselves up. As a response to that the BTN should only shove KK+ and AK, which in turn means you can only call KK+. However, if we widen his shove range to 99+,AQs+,AK then we can profitably call with TT+,AK. At the time it's really tough to know what he's doing. It feels bad to see 99 in this spot, but he's making a really big mistake versus your range. In tournaments we can avoid what we might feel are marginal spots, even though in hindsight you would have won got it in versus a hand you had absolutely crushed. I would imagine your edge is signficant enough where you don't have to call it off here with TT or even JJ. QQ would be much closer.

    Disclaimer: I calculated these ranges in HRC using 150/300 with 0 antes - is that correct? Ranges will obviously be wider if there are antes.
  • FishermanFisherman Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    @Gazellig I just looked back at the structure and the level was 50 ANTE and 150/300. Clearly this changes the analysis (my bad).

    @Jules thanks for your insights!!! Also good to know I'm not the only player (recreational in my case) who finds myself in these spots.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    Hand 1: I only like a flat here if you are planning on snap folding to a shove. To offset this, I will tend to MIN-RAISE. this shows tremendous strength to the other players. It would be pretty reckless for one the other players to come over the top of your 6k without :As :Ad , :Ks :Kd , :Ah :Kh or :Qs :Qd . I'm not saying 99 would have folded but he probably wouldn't have went all in. And on most flops, you guys would have most likely be checking it down to the river.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Hand 2: Why tank? It's either a standard c-bet of ~3k or check right back. I like to have a plan before the flop comes out. A board with one overcard to my pair is certainly one of the flops I consider when holding 99. I would have c-bet but I don't think it really mattered here. Your opponent have shipped to a c-bet with his :Js :Jd , :Qd :Qh or :As :Js .

    The only thing tanking may have done here is tipped off that you had a marginal hand. I still think he had you but maybe faster play would have allowed you to draw to the 2 outer that you needed to win the hand. Seeing as how he had the same hand, a c-bet would have either made him fold or call with the intent to get to showdown as cheap as possible.

    Either way, you didn't lose very much at all so this is a small blip in the radar of the tournament.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    Hand 3: UGHHHHHHH. :Ks :Qd . Looks great, especially when your drunk or card dead. But it's secretly a pretty bad hand in tournament poker (especially in early position). I'm not saying a raise is a bad idea. In fact, it should be a raise or fold in EP.

    But why o why would you continue when a SELF PROCLAIMED TAG ships it with a short stack. If you labeled him as a TAG, treat him as such. Think about it, there are a lot more hands he has that dominate you here.( :As :Kd and :Ad :Qh being the 2 most likely).

    Your stack is still very manageable at ~28k. But when you knock off 10k more you start getting into that weird size just as the blinds are about to get "serious". Chips saved are MUCH more important then the 10k you would have made, had you won your (seemingly) coin flip against the TAG.

    Think about the difference your stack is going forward (at ~17k). Now the big stacks can call you without worrying about being crippled. The Mid stacks can justify calling due to pot odds. The small stacks may sense you are desperate to not get to "their level" and call you light as well. This is a nightmare. Unless you start getting good cards (AND HAVE THEM HOLD UP) you are going to fizzle out in this tournament
  • FishermanFisherman Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    thanks @BenLeewood appreciate your insight!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file