Show or Muck?

Adrian RactliffeAdrian Ractliffe Red Chipper Posts: 10
edited January 21 in New To Poker Questions
Is there ever a good time to turn your card/s if it doesn't get to show down or should you always muck.
When would be a good time to show them.
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Answers

  • RickyNateRickyNate Red Chipper Posts: 31
    Everyone is different, so be prepared for likely varying responses. Sometimes I would value showing cards and giving your opponents a free look if you're showing a bluff. That way, they are more likely to call a large bet that looks similar to the way you previously bluffed, except now you're holding the nuts.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2016
    I would say no. Primarily because you'll never know how your opponent will interpret that info so in sense your desired effect showing them could be very different than what you were expecting. And since it's a game of incomplete infos, what would you want your opponents to have some piece of the puzzle.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭✭
    depends on the table, depends on your image, depends on the hand.

    if you're a very tight player who's getting good cards, but getting no action... then raising with a bad hand and showing when everybody folds might be a good idea.

    if you're a player who's been getting a lot of good hands and have been getting action - but want to encourage folks to fold on the turn or river (as they have been) - it might be a good idea to show an overpair after V folds to encourage him to make future laydowns to your aggression. (one pro once referred to this as a "steam value" kind of move ... to alleviate the possible table frustration of having to fold to you and thinking you're trying to bulldoze them.)

    that said: on the whole - most serious or "pro" players do not like to show because they want players left in the dark with the kind of hands they play and how they would play them. And they welcome other players to try and make a move on them to counter their constant raising/betting, because that's part of their strategy.

    like I said: it depends.
  • ZENIZENZENIZEN Red Chipper Posts: 165 ✭✭
    Hey look ..at your local 1/2 when they start grumbling about "That guy only raises the nuts" or before even its nice too gracefully fold a low pocket pair or suited connector and show it to cut off the group think that your a super nit. Also showing the top of your range is fairly harmless if you win on the flop etc . Yuck it up be friendly and entertaining at least a little bit . But don't make it a habit ...When your legit leveling someone or making unorthodox plays ..big bluffs or 3 barrels with the nuts make em second guess themselves . I like to show hands I got a walk with and flopped huge from the big blind on occasion because they are so random . I also never show if they ask ! Don't be uptight about it but it should be a rarity.
  • volcanovolcano Red Chipper Posts: 271 ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    I show or offer to show more often than not, I am usually ahead when big money goes in. I am also usually the most aggressive player and bluff often, even showing them/ and I still get accused of being tight by random regs. Alot of people dont pay any attention.

    I probably dont show if they are asking and tanking, they may pay attention.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm of the school that you should basically not ever show your cards, unless you really, really know what you're doing. I've shown my cards maybe 3 or 4 times in my whole life, and even then I was probably just doing it on a whim rather than really, really knowing what I was doing.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,170 ✭✭✭✭
    One place I would specifically recommend not showing your cards is in a tournament when you were bluffing. The reason is that unlike in a cash game, the blinds are going up and stealing them is going to be an important part of your strategy. It's true that if you show a bluff you might get more action on your value hands, but unlike in a cash game, you can't always afford to wait until the next value hand. You have to be able to bluff and take down pots sometimes because your tournament survival depends on it.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7
    There is a reason the "Show One" game creates some of the best games you will ever play in.

    Basically you guys are no fun.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,430 -
    I have never regretted not showing. I have regretted showing. You never know how showing will influence them.
    Founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Jimmy3150Jimmy3150 Red Chipper Posts: 360 ✭✭
    If I've found a way to exploit someone, I generally want to induce comfortability so I can continue to exploit them...so whichever is the best way to do that.

    It's amazing at 1/2 how everyone will accept the last data point as how you're playing every hand. I showed JJ recently on a T high paired board to make a guy feel better about his flop fold. Guess what ... everyone was then folding to my cbets despite my cbet % being WAY too high...which was great because I was missing completely thereafter :-). I don't make many hands, so I never show bluffs - because I don't want the guy to adjust...

    I agree with Adam though - you should be keeping the incomplete information incomplete in this game. If in doubt, don't show.
  • BackFatBackFat Red Chipper Posts: 28
    Regretted showing 1 last night on a handt. It was going around at the table and when I did it another player took it as an opportunity to educate the villain from the hand on what I must have had etc. For some reason I was bad guy at the table because of my perceived tightness at the time.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 716 ✭✭✭
    Always muck, except quads +
  • Blake Van NessBlake Van Ness Red Chipper Posts: 54
    I always show 7 2 off
  • sullyooosullyooo Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    Each opponent is a picture comprised of a jigsaw puzzle. As you play you try and get as many pieces of the puzzle so you can begin to see the picture.

    Getting these pieces is very difficult at 30 hands an hour. Each real piece is worth it's weight in gold. The real pieces are those gleaned at showdown when you actually see an opponent's hand.

    When a player shows his/her hand when they did not have too, especially a bluff, I shake my head.

    I know what they are thinking "now I will get paid off". What really happened is you gave me anywhere from 3-7 real pieces for my puzzle for free. Not only do I know you are a bluffer, which you will not all of sudden stop, I will be able to piece together all kinds of things like your frequencies, preflop ranges, calling ranges, betting ranges, bet sizing etc..

    And the player thinks with 1 play they have just maneuvered me into hero calls or this brilliant tactic will all of sudden make me bluff catch for all my money?

    or maybe my picture, now more realized, will allow me to maneuver you?

    I guess it all depends on who is the mouse and and who is the cat in this game :)

    I never show
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    I also rarely show. But I did a week ago when I check raised all in on a 765r with 33. The villain of interest folded 86 (!!). Everyone else folded and I showed my 33.

    Fast forward to last night. I have the same villain of interest two to my left. I raise KQs when he straddled the Btn. He flatted and everyone else folded. Flop was K74hh. I bet 2/3 pot. He called. Turn was a non-heart Q. I shoved for 1.3x pot and he beat me into the pot. With AQo.

    Even after the hand he said he really thought he was good on the turn.


    I don't think I get an A-high flop float and a turn snap call if I don't show 33 a week earlier.


    Tl:dr Car flips over 4 times going 70 and lands on all four wheels.
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38
    I guess it all depends on who is the mouse and and who is the cat in this game :)

    This :-)

    I wouldn't give info unless I have a clear plan and target. It should be very clear what you want to achieve with this.
    What really happened is you gave me anywhere from 3-7 real pieces for my puzzle for free.

    Against such player I really don't want to show my cards....

    The good news is that it is quite easy to spot who you are dealing with :-)
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    Car flips over 4 times going 70 and lands on all four wheels.

    no, THIS! ;-)
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    I showed a hand yesterday at the RCP MD Live meet up. Guy to my left was giving me too much respect. So when the board double paired 3JJKK and I noticed he twitched slightly when the 2nd K came on the river I bet $30 into a $60 pot. As he showed me his 10 J hand while throwing it into the much and telling me "how lucky" I got, I showed him pocket 66. I had to take a break from the table and gloat on that one.

    He seemed to be a decent player but folding a full house when you are getting 3:1 is a leak in my book.
  • sullyooosullyooo Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    BustDaNuts wrote: »
    I guess it all depends on who is the mouse and and who is the cat in this game :)

    This :-)

    I wouldn't give info unless I have a clear plan and target. It should be very clear what you want to achieve with this.
    What really happened is you gave me anywhere from 3-7 real pieces for my puzzle for free.

    Against such player I really don't want to show my cards....

    The good news is that it is quite easy to spot who you are dealing with :-)

    People seem to be very focused on the villain in the hand when showing cards. There are 7 other players at the table.

    The cat is always watching. If I'm not in the hand, when I say I got free information, I mean really.... FREE information :)
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 151 ✭✭
    I showed a hand yesterday at the RCP MD Live meet up. Guy to my left was giving me too much respect. So when the board double paired 3JJKK and I noticed he twitched slightly when the 2nd K came on the river I bet $30 into a $60 pot. As he showed me his 10 J hand while throwing it into the much and telling me "how lucky" I got, I showed him pocket 66. I had to take a break from the table and gloat on that one.

    He seemed to be a decent player but folding a full house when you are getting 3:1 is a leak in my book.


    You and him went on to play a lot of pots against each other after this hand. Do you think this hand tilted these future exchanges in your favor? I am pretty sure it helped increase the frequency of villain getting involved in pots with you.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    People seem to be very focused on the villain in the hand when showing cards. There are 7 other players at the table.

    The other day I showed 33 to a table full of villains. Most of them did nothing about it.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    To all of you who fear showing... this is a defensive maneuver, right? To not show.

    If these are people we feel free to exploitatively play against using other tactics (bet sizing differences, hero folds, 12x preflop raise sizes, etc.) we do so because we think they are unable to use that information against us, because they adjust improperly, because we adjust better than they do. Why is this different?

    Look, if you become good at showing, and anticipating reactions accurately, Soto will hire you.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    To all of you who fear showing... this is a defensive maneuver, right? To not show.
    there are two reasons to show:
    1.) to gain more action in the future
    2.) to stroke our own ego

    I'm in the game to acquire chips.
    And neither of these reasons help me do so.
    By raising, 3-betting and barrelling more - I will get more action in the future.
    By pounding on my opponents, I will force them to play bigger pots with hands that they're not sure how good they are.
    In the meantime, I'm acquiring chips.

    Since poker is a game of information - I don't want villains to know my ranges, my bluff frequencies nor my knowledge of the game. I want them to find me hard to play against. I want them to come on the forums and say, "some maniac raised PF and .... blah, blah, blah."

    All of you who think showing helps you down the road (in low limit games) are fooling yourselves. As others have pointed out - it not only gives free information to your opponent... it give free information to the entire table.
    It lets others know what your capable of.


    What information do you think will help you gain more bets later:
    a.) making a bet in a pot where you should have the nuts, getting folds and showing it?
    or
    b.) making a big bet on the river, getting called and tabling your hand like a boss?

    me thinks being considered a maniac is much more +EV than being considered a nit who sometimes makes a well-timed bluff.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 558 ✭✭✭
    When I don't show, and I hear others at the table talk about what they presume my hand must have been, then I gain FAR more information about them then any value that I could theoretically get by showing.

    By not showing, they simply make more mistakes against me since they have a less definitive range on me. And, for those who like to show an out-of-character play because they think that it will affect how others think of them, I'd rather keep those cards to myself -- and make that move again!
    I showed a hand yesterday at the RCP MD Live meet up. Guy to my left was giving me too much respect. So when the board double paired 3JJKK and I noticed he twitched slightly when the 2nd K came on the river I bet $30 into a $60 pot. As he showed me his 10 J hand while throwing it into the much and telling me "how lucky" I got, I showed him pocket 66. I had to take a break from the table and gloat on that one.

    He seemed to be a decent player but folding a full house when you are getting 3:1 is a leak in my book.

    I would NEVER show this hand. More likely than V going on tilt is V learning not to fold in these situations. By showing, I think that you just gave V a free lesson in poker. I'd rather say, "Nice fold." Or "Man, I wish I had the discipline to lay down a hand like that when I know I'm beat." Or, wait about 10 minutes, then get up from the table for any reason. As you leave, walk by V and whisper in his hear, "Great fucking fold. I had the king. I don't know how you laid that down."

    I think that any of those would be a far superior tactic than showing -- especially since you alluded to the fact that your showing was a gloating moment for you.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    edited January 23
    kagey wrote: »
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    To all of you who fear showing... this is a defensive maneuver, right? To not show.
    there are two reasons to show:
    1.) to gain more action in the future
    2.) to stroke our own ego

    #3) To inhibit action in the future ?
    kagey wrote: »
    I'm in the game to acquire chips.
    And neither of these reasons help me do so.
    By raising, 3-betting and barrelling more - I will get more action in the future.
    By pounding on my opponents, I will force them to play bigger pots with hands that they're not sure how good they are.
    In the meantime, I'm acquiring chips.

    Since poker is a game of information - I don't want villains to know my ranges, my bluff frequencies nor my knowledge of the game. I want them to find me hard to play against. I want them to come on the forums and say, "some maniac raised PF and .... blah, blah, blah."

    All of you who think showing helps you down the road (in low limit games) are fooling yourselves. As others have pointed out - it not only gives free information to your opponent... it give free information to the entire table.
    It lets others know what your capable of.

    Maybe you should show nuts and value Kagey. If you have learned to push people off hands good for you. I have not, thus my style is value-oriented.

    kagey wrote: »
    What information do you think will help you gain more bets later:
    a.) making a bet in a pot where you should have the nuts, getting folds and showing it?
    or
    b.) making a big bet on the river, getting called and tabling your hand like a boss?

    me thinks being considered a maniac is much more +EV than being considered a nit who sometimes makes a well-timed bluff.

    On level one, A will help you get called in B. B will help you get folds later on if you have it, and calls if you don't.

    I have just started thinking about this so take it for that... but I think a maniac who shows the goods when people fold is showing in line with what he wants people to do: Fold.

    Conversely, a nit should show bluffs.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    If you have learned to push people off hands good for you. I have not, thus my style is value-oriented.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but having a "value-oriented" style sounds more like you're a "nut-peddler." Sounds like you're waiting to make a hand, and then betting however much value you can get from it. It's one way of playing (which I used to do). But in the long-run, it's neutral to low EV.

    Consider this:
    JR raises pre from LP with the reputation of playing fit or fold. He bets the AK4r flop. Does he get a call? Maybe. But about 75% of the time he gets folds. Then on the turn, he bets and gets everything worse to fold.
    KG raises pre from LP with a reputation of barrelling bluffs and made hands. First, how many players do you think call his raise vs. JR? (probably more). Next, he bets the AK4r flop. How many callers are coming along on the turn? (Probably a whole lot more than vs. JR.) how many more players are coming to the river vs KG as opposed to JR?

    who's getting the most value from the same hand?

    The difference between the two players is "frequency."
    JR has a very low frequency of raising and/or betting bluffs. So when he makes one, he's liable to get folds. When he does, he wins a small pot.
    KG has a high frequency of betting bluffs. So when he bets, he's liable to get more calls by players with worse hands. When he's got the goods, he's winning a bigger pot.

    When JR shows his bluff, the table will say... nice hand. Good bluff.
    When KG shows his bluff, the table will say... damn! I knew I should have called!

    But JR isn't getting any more action by showing a bluff.
    And KG isn't really getting any more action by showing his either.
    Showing only confirms what the table already believes the players are... "Confirmation Bias"

    Ain't nobody going to call JR's PRF next hand from oop and call 3-barrels on a AK427 board without 2-pair+. Regardless of if he showed a bluff or not.

    Showing doesn't really "changed" how the table will play against you... until you change your frequencies. I'll allow a nit to run over me all two times in a row when he feels strong. Because I know he'll never have the balls to do it three times without the nuts.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    Butch wrote: »
    I showed a hand yesterday at the RCP MD Live meet up. Guy to my left was giving me too much respect. So when the board double paired 3JJKK and I noticed he twitched slightly when the 2nd K came on the river I bet $30 into a $60 pot. As he showed me his 10 J hand while throwing it into the much and telling me "how lucky" I got, I showed him pocket 66. I had to take a break from the table and gloat on that one.

    He seemed to be a decent player but folding a full house when you are getting 3:1 is a leak in my book.


    You and him went on to play a lot of pots against each other after this hand. Do you think this hand tilted these future exchanges in your favor? I am pretty sure it helped increase the frequency of villain getting involved in pots with you.

    No, I don't think the hand tilted future exchanges in my favor because I could never get the best of him much after that hand. As I had stated in the "meetup" thread, I was card dead most of the night.

    He turned out to be a Nitty player in my book. The whole 7+ hours I played beside him, he had never shown one bluff at show down. I found if he c-bet against me around 1/2 pot and then checked the turn, he either had a small hand that unfortunately never gotten shown because of the "show hand in rotation rule" and I would have to show my medium pair (bluff catching hand) or he would fold to my rare donk bets. Once or twice he had c-bet 2/3 to pot bet. I felt he probably had a good hand, ie; top pair +.
    If you noticed the 2 times he had went all in, once against jfarrow, he had the nuts or damn near nuts. In jfarrow case he had the nuts. Other time he had a fullhouse.

    I was trying to set him up for when I did have him beat. He wouldn't pay me off on my 1/2 pot river bets .

    I didn't show my cards and gloat in his face. I played one or two more hands before leaving for a bathroom break. I must admit I did have a smirk on my face while walking towards the bathroom 'cause I finally got the mofo that straddled me all night. I understand the reasons as to why not to show but if I had to do it again this WV boy would show that guy again. "Let's go Mountaineers"! :)

    Prior to me leaving an older gentlemen starting bitching at the straddler for being a "knowitall".
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 200 ✭✭
    edited January 24
    kagey wrote: »
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    If you have learned to push people off hands good for you. I have not, thus my style is value-oriented.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but having a "value-oriented" style sounds more like you're a "nut-peddler." Sounds like you're waiting to make a hand, and then betting however much value you can get from it. It's one way of playing (which I used to do). But in the long-run, it's neutral to low EV.

    I'm trying to move on from this low place.


    kagey wrote: »
    Consider this:
    JR raises pre from LP with the reputation of playing fit or fold. He bets the AK4r flop. Does he get a call? Maybe. But about 75% of the time he gets folds. Then on the turn, he bets and gets everything worse to fold.

    JR plays against some observant thinking players who adjust to his game!

    kagey wrote: »
    KG raises pre from LP with a reputation of barrelling bluffs and made hands. First, how many players do you think call his raise vs. JR? (probably more). Next, he bets the AK4r flop. How many callers are coming along on the turn? (Probably a whole lot more than vs. JR.) how many more players are coming to the river vs KG as opposed to JR?

    Wait? Are you telling me that these observant thinking players who adjust prefer to play with, and, presumably, take advantage of aggressive-balanced-KG rather than fit-or-fold-JR?
    kagey wrote: »
    who's getting the most value from the same hand?

    KG, no doubt. In fact, I think Doug Polk had a nice vlog about that recently.... :D
    kagey wrote: »
    The difference between the two players is "frequency."
    JR has a very low frequency of raising and/or betting bluffs. So when he makes one, he's liable to get folds. When he does, he wins a small pot.
    KG has a high frequency of betting bluffs. So when he bets, he's liable to get more calls by players with worse hands. When he's got the goods, he's winning a bigger pot.

    When JR shows his bluff, the table will say... nice hand. Good bluff.
    When KG shows his bluff, the table will say... damn! I knew I should have called!

    But JR isn't getting any more action by showing a bluff.

    For goodness sake, at least he's bluffing SOME of the time.
    kagey wrote: »
    And KG isn't really getting any more action by showing his either.

    No, KG should not show bluffs. It's hard to make a hand. Why would KG encourage villains to call him more? Wouldn't that make it harder for him to bluff?
    kagey wrote: »
    Showing only confirms what the table already believes the players are... "Confirmation Bias"

    Or not... does showing a hand have no effect at all, except to confirm that which villains already want to suspect?
    kagey wrote: »
    Ain't nobody going to call JR's PRF next hand from oop and call 3-barrels on a AK427 board without 2-pair+. Regardless of if he showed a bluff or not.

    That would be suicide. But you should call his PFR oop and be the tun the 2/3 times he checks that flop.
    kagey wrote: »
    Showing doesn't really "changed" how the table will play against you... until you change your frequencies. I'll allow a nit to run over me all two times in a row when he feels strong. Because I know he'll never have the balls to do it three times without the nuts.

    Wait, has showing changed how the table will play against me or hasn't it?



    I don't know what I'm doing here. But I think I'm on to something. Could be nothing though.
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 151 ✭✭
    @morel hunter: Yeah he was a pain in the ass all night. He called after I barreled 3 times ending with a busted draw. I flopped an OESD and lead out into two or three players and he called. I bet the turn when it paired my hand and he called. I bet half pot again on the river brick. He tanked but makes the call with bottom pair. So he had 5s and I had 6s.

    Jack ask me if I knew I was good. LOL.

    But, I thought he was mostly full of shit calling twice and should have mostly bluff catchers that he should mostly fold here to 3 leading bets from me. I would be pretty sure I have an OMC image. Anyway, I was surprised to see him call there with 5s. Do you remember the hand? Would you have called?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    Wait, has showing changed how the table will play against me or hasn't it?



    I don't know what I'm doing here. But I think I'm on to something. Could be nothing though.

    ahh grasshopper... you have begun your journey.

    welcome to real game of poker....
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