Call an All in with 4-5 suited????

BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
Hey guys. Ran into a weird spot today, let me know what you think?

$60 Rebuy tournament at Ocean's 11. 20 players left. Only final table gets paid. Blinds are $1600/$800 with 100 Ante.

So I just lost about 1/2 my chips with :Ad :Kd. I just didn't hit and had to fold on the turn. Pretty standard stuff. I'm not on tilt and am happy the way I played the hand.

But now I'm sitting with 9 BB's. Average stack is 30 BB's. Time to make a move!!!!! And there's only 1 move in my arsenal. Blinds are raising in 5 minutes.

I'm in the Big Blind (don't know what I have yet). MP raises to 4.5k (~30BB's) and it folds around to SB (+60BB) who raises to 15k. Time to dream of Aces and take a look.

Before I look, I wonder if I should call dark. I only have 8 BB's left and here's a chance to triple up. 1/8th of my stack is already in (BB) but I realistically only have 5-6 more hands until I will have to go all in (to have a chance of making the final table).

Reads are that both guys have a good hand at least. I'm putting one on AK/AQs and the other on QQ's+. So I look at :4h :5h .

Even if I feel I'm way behind........Is this a fold or a shove?

Keep in mind. The blinds are about to eat me alive. I'm also a long shot to make the final table. I'd probably have to double up 2-3 times in the next 1-2 rotations to have a chance.

Comments

  • OutlierOutlier Red Chipper Posts: 158 ✭✭
    edited November 2016
    This hand is a snap fold in the spot. With your short stack, you want to be the preflop aggressor as often as possible. If you call off here, you will have to hit to win. If you are the pre-flop aggressor, you give your opponents the opportunity to make an incorrect fold and you can win chips without having to have the best hand.

    Despite your short stack, 9 BB isn't so bad that you have to get it in on the next hand. I'm not sure about the math, but maybe this hand becomes a call with under 5 BBs...

    The bigger issue is how you got to this point: folding away half your stack with AKs? With under 20 BB you should be looking to fist-pump get it in preflop with AKs. Not sure of the details of that hand, but if you find yourself trying to talk yourself into an all-in call preflop with 54s, it may worth re-examining the hand before.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i'm guessing you're asking cuz you folded and would have tripled up if you shoved?
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    agree w/ Outlier - how did you not get all in with AKs and 18BB to start? If you open raised and got a caller, just shove any flop. If someone raised before you, shove over. (18BB is a great reshove stack, and we even have a hand this time).
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    i'm guessing you're asking cuz you folded and would have tripled up if you shoved?

    I did fold. I don't know what the result would have been if I called. This is a hypothetical question.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    taglius wrote: »
    agree w/ Outlier - how did you not get all in with AKs and 18BB to start? If you open raised and got a caller, just shove any flop. If someone raised before you, shove over. (18BB is a great reshove stack, and we even have a hand this time).

    This has nothing to do with the AK hand before. That was a standardly played hand at that point in a very speedy tournament. Me and another pretty big stack collided and he showed me the winner after I folded. Try to stay on topic.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Outlier wrote: »

    Despite your short stack, 9 BB isn't so bad that you have to get it in on the next hand. I'm not sure about the math, but maybe this hand becomes a call with under 5 BBs...
    This is untrue in these kinds of tournaments. Being below 10 BB at this point in the tournament is just about a death sentence.

  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    RESULTS.............

    Before I post the meaningless results, I should say that I was looking for "out of the box" thinking on why a shove COULD be a good idea here. I tried to set you guys up with a lot of information to get you "out of the box" but it backfired. I should have know everyone would jump all over the AK hand. "did he play it right?" I should have just said I got coolered and moved on.

    I know what the standard play is here. FOLD. Done. Not a hand/question worth posting. It's worth noting that I did fold. But an itch made me consider calling.....which is why I posted this hand. I posted it to see HOW WRONG my line of thinking was.

    Here's my argument for CALLING here. I'm in the death zone for the way this tournament is structured. I need to double up multiple times in the next 10-20 hands to have a chance. With 2 raisers its safe to say they have big cards. Maybe they both have AK. It isn't a stretch that they at least share one big card. Even if one does have AA or KK.....I still have some equity. Right?

    I know I have to hit here but is this not a chance to triple up that you should consider in such a dire circumstance?

    So the MP opened with :As :Kd and the small blind 3 bet with :Ks :Kh. I folded after taking 30 seconds to consider if it would EVER be right to call it off here.

    Flop came out :4s :6c :7h . SB shipped it and MP folded.

    Obviously i'd have loved a chance to reverse time and call it off, since I would have picked up so much equity but I don't question a fold cause of it. I Just shared the flop cause its interesting. I know I made the right fold and don't beat myself up about not calling whatsoever.

    I should have went into detail about how desperate the situation was due to the tournament structure and chip stacks. That's were deviation from the norm may have been the correct coarse of action.

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the flop had come :AC: :QH: :9D: - we would have wished that we shoved with JT.

    look, I hear what you're saying - but in a tourney, you only get one shot to improve your short stack... so you should be looking for a hand that has the most equity possible.
    45s is a dog against nearly EVERYTHING else except 27os.
    why would you ever want to go into a flop KNOWING that you're behind?

    Me? I'd want to have the best chance possible to double or triple up.
    I'd rather discuss the merits of shoving with 22 here hoping that both opponents have AK than debating how 45s is good because bettors and 3-betters won't have that in their range.

    Say you shoved and both called with AK.
    They've still got you beat with A-high.
    if you don't hit a 4 or 5, or run into a str8 - you're toast.
    heck, you could even hit your flush and run into AKhh.

    Nash has already figured this problem out.
    at 8BB or 10BB - you're only good if you're in the SB against just the BB.
    otherwise, it's spew.
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    BenLeewood wrote: »
    RESULTS.............

    Here's my argument for CALLING here. I'm in the death zone for the way this tournament is structured. I need to double up multiple times in the next 10-20 hands to have a chance. With 2 raisers its safe to say they have big cards. Maybe they both have AK. It isn't a stretch that they at least share one big card. Even if one does have AA or KK.....I still have some equity. Right?

    I know I have to hit here but is this not a chance to triple up that you should consider in such a dire circumstance?

    A few things jump out at me here.

    1) You mentioned earlier in the thread that having <10bb is a death sentence and here you say you're in the death zone. Do the blinds double next level? I don't know the structure so I'm interested to hear your reasons that you believe this.

    2) "With 2 raisers its safe to say they have big cards. " I think this might be an incorrect assumption. The original raiser could have a lot more than big cards, like pairs, suited connectors, suited Aces. You give really tight ranges for both players earlier in the thread, which I can't comment on, but maybe they're playing much wider than that. The tighter they play though, the less equity 54s will have against one or both of their ranges. To triple up here you would need at least 33% equity against both ranges and that just doesn't happen against tight ranges. It might be useful to see how 54s plays against two different ranges.

    3) Versus AA or KK you really don't want to be getting it in with 54s.

    4) Again, it's difficult to comment on the dire circumstance of a shortstack as you put it, but I would look at it differently and see that you can play (almost) perfectly with a little push/fold knowledge, which I believe you probably have.

    5) The simplest way to analyse these spots is to whack it in Holdem Resources Calculator or ICMIZER and see what it spits out.

    6) I really like that you're thinking outside the box, but I hope this helps you see that 54s is not a get in here.

    As always, really happy to discuss this spot further. Thanks for posting.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    Gazellig wrote: »
    BenLeewood wrote: »
    RESULTS.............

    Here's my argument for CALLING here. I'm in the death zone for the way this tournament is structured. I need to double up multiple times in the next 10-20 hands to have a chance. With 2 raisers its safe to say they have big cards. Maybe they both have AK. It isn't a stretch that they at least share one big card. Even if one does have AA or KK.....I still have some equity. Right?

    I know I have to hit here but is this not a chance to triple up that you should consider in such a dire circumstance?

    A few things jump out at me here.

    1) You mentioned earlier in the thread that having <10bb is a death sentence and here you say you're in the death zone. Do the blinds double next level? I don't know the structure so I'm interested to hear your reasons that you believe this.

    2) "With 2 raisers its safe to say they have big cards. " I think this might be an incorrect assumption. The original raiser could have a lot more than big cards, like pairs, suited connectors, suited Aces. You give really tight ranges for both players earlier in the thread, which I can't comment on, but maybe they're playing much wider than that. The tighter they play though, the less equity 54s will have against one or both of their ranges. To triple up here you would need at least 33% equity against both ranges and that just doesn't happen against tight ranges. It might be useful to see how 54s plays against two different ranges.

    3) Versus AA or KK you really don't want to be getting it in with 54s.

    4) Again, it's difficult to comment on the dire circumstance of a shortstack as you put it, but I would look at it differently and see that you can play (almost) perfectly with a little push/fold knowledge, which I believe you probably have.

    5) The simplest way to analyse these spots is to whack it in Holdem Resources Calculator or ICMIZER and see what it spits out.

    6) I really like that you're thinking outside the box, but I hope this helps you see that 54s is not a get in here.

    As always, really happy to discuss this spot further. Thanks for posting.

    Well said Gazellig. Real good things. Thanks for sharing.

    1) I started with 8,000 plus my 1,700 in the Big Blind. I "correctly" folded and also folded my :3s :5c in the Small Blind, leaving me with 7,100. Blinds went up the next hand (my button) to 1k/2k +200 ante. Leaving me with 3.5 BB's.

    I'm realizing that these may be important facts that I should have included in my post. These may paint a better picture about the spot I was in.

    2) I definitely thought there was a good chance that 1 of them had a pair. But here's a chance to get in against "only" 2 players and get a much needed triple up. Or I can pray for a REALLY good run of cards in the next 3-5ish hands. Which is what I did, for the record.

    3) You Never WANT to be in a pot when someone has AA or KK. And I certainly thought is was very possible SB had one of those. But I'd rather have :4h :5h then :Ac :5c . There has to be SOME kind of equity, right? In fact, it's better equity then KK would have, right? Or close.

    RESULTS BE DAMED.........but........ I got dealt :7c :7h after my button hand and shipped in my remaining stack of 6,600 (blinds at 1k/2K). Got called by the Button, SB and BB. All 3 players had live cards and I got crushed. An inevitable outcome for my circumstance.

    I know I did the correct thing.....but found myself wondering if the "hail mary" should have been in the BB. Even if I didn't see the flop and he flipped over KK......I still would wonder.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't "call" an all in with 45s because of the pre flop action that you encountered. Now if there was someone from the BU or CO that had been raising my blind I would ship it over the top and pray for a fold. :) Also if I was opener and in position I would ship with suited connectors.

    When in situations like that I know what it feels like to find a spot. I start to get super antsy. It is completely possible to come back. So don't look at it as do or die. I hate when people start to tell me you need to make move and get it in. It is my itty bitty short stack and I will ship it when I please!! :)

    As everyone else said. I know we weren't talking about the AK hand, but it is really important when we get short to think about what got us there. You weren't out of the tourney just cause you got unlucky with sevens... Was it only the AK hand that crippled you? Something to chew on... :)

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